317 The e-On Drive Episode

Gary Comerford (: 00:00

I bet most of you think that all CPOs are the same, right? They all throw charges up wherever, levy huge tariffs on charging your EV, leave the units to rot or break down, and run away with your cash. Now, while it's certainly the case that every single one of those statements has happened at one point or another to a different CPO, I think it would be unfair of me to tar all charge point operators with the same brush.

Regular listeners to this podcast will know that I like to speak to charge point operators whenever I can. I have a fairly standard set of questions that I like to ask alongside the occasional zinger that I throw in from time to time. That way we can compare and contrast the different companies by how they respond to those questions. over the many seasons of the show, we've spoken to companies like

Instavold, Osprey Charging, GridServe, FastNed, Sandwich Smart Charge, Pod, formerly PodPoint, GDPoint, one or two others. Last season we had Neil Broadbank from Raw Charging on talking about their offering. And this season we've actually had a returning CPO in the form of BP Pulse. Not surprisingly, that episode has seen quite a few more listeners than a usual episode gets on this channel, so check it out if you want.

But it's now been the best part of seven months since we last had a new charge point operator on the show. So I thought it was time to get someone new on to talk about their charging operation.

Hi, I'm Gary, and this is EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles, and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners.

Just to let you know, in a couple of weeks' time, I'll be holding the end-of-season roundtable episode. As usual, there'll be some interesting guests on and some fascinating topics. So make sure you're subscribed so you can get that as soon as it's released. Don't forget to leave a comment if you get to the end of this episode and find it interesting or useful. Now, our main topic of discussion today is Eon Drive. Now, you'll no doubt be aware of Eon, the energy company. They provide gas and electricity.

To a large number of UK customers. And following their recent takeover of energy company Ovo, they've now become the largest energy supplier by customer accounts with around 9.6 million households. But a lot of you won't be aware of the fact that Eon actually run a charge point operation. Now it's called Eon Drive Infrastructure or EDRI for short.

they're actually a European wide organization with sites in Sweden, Denmark, the Czech Republic and a couple of other countries.

In the conversation that follows, we'll talk with their managing director, Dev Chana, about their rollout strategy, pricing, how they're trying to make the whole charging thing as bland and as boring as possible, and what they're going to be doing about canopies, amongst many other topics.

For those of you expecting a discussion on the Eon Ovo merger, we're afraid you might be a little bit disappointed. Dev and I did touch on this briefly before we started recording, but due to the nature of the state of the merger of the merger itself and the fact that people's jobs are involved, we elected not to include that as part of the conversation.

So after a brief word from our sponsor Zapmap, we'll meet

Dev Chana

Gary Comerford Zapmap Outro (: 03:15

The EV Musings Podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the go-to app for EV drivers to find and pay for public charging with confidence. Zapmap is free to download and use, with thousands of public charge points to choose from, live pricing and availability information, and a range of filters to find the right charge for you. Plus, choose subscription models for enhanced features such as using Zapmap in car, on CarPlay, or Android Auto, and discounted charging across thousands of charge points.

Dev Chana (: 03:42

Hello Gary. Hello everybody. My name's Dev Chana. I'm managing director of Eon Drive Infrastructure here in the UK. We're fundamentally the public charging arm of charging within UK.

Gary Comerford (: 03:54

Well, I like that. So give me a give me a bit of an introduction into I mean, I've got it down as E-On Drive but you call it something completely different. So help me understand what what the company

Dev Chana (: 04:03

we can do that. Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 04:04

is, what the background is, etcetera. Just the the thought thirty second overview, please.

Dev Chana (: 04:09

Yeah, sure. So Gary, I I think the best way to describe us, Eon in the UK probably has three major touch points when it comes to e-mobility. There's the business closely aligned to Eon Next, which is about domestic charging or residential charging. So in a very casual way, it's about bolting a charger to the side of your home and having a very sensible EV tariff attached to it. Then there's Eon Drive or Eon Drive Solutions to give them their full name. That business, Gary, is largely involved with the electrification of what I say behind the fence.

Depot or private businesses, that sort of stuff.

Gary Comerford (: 04:40

Mm-hmm.

Dev Chana (: 04:41

And then there's the business that I run. It's the public arm or the CPO, the charge point arm that's called Eon Drive Infrastructure, EDRI for short or EDRI for short. A little bit more on us. We are spread across 11 European countries. EDRI operates across Europe, or certainly a really big chunk of it, and this Tiger Teams I would describe us as in most European countries, and I run the bit here in the UK. As a bit of a headline, probably

Probably by the end of this year we're gonna be up to about 380 charging bays. 300 of them will be HPC, 300 KW units, and that's probably around about 55 sites or so. We've been going for not a long time. I mean I've been here three and a half years. I try and count from when the first charger went in the ground as really when we started our work. So, in that sense, probably about two and a half years of actual practical good work helping drivers get out and about there.

Gary Comerford (: 05:33

Okay. you've answered like four of the questions I was gonna ask, so that's very, very good, just an introduction.

Dev Chana (: 05:38

You can edit it and ask me the questions again.

Gary Comerford (: 05:40

May well do that. my

I'm sort of not necessarily having conversations, but I'm I'm thinking around the whole concept of the different types of CPOs.

And there's this concept of the pure play CPO. So a company which basically all it does is provide charge point or charging to individuals or companies. Would you classify yourself as a pure play CPO?

Dev Chana (: 06:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely well. And I think Gary, that that's a really really good conversation. I think for for anyone watching and listening in, there's probably four to five major different types of CPOs out there. I think the first one is largely what I would see is your private equity funded CPOs. And I think all of us absolutely adore them. That's the likes of your Instavolts, your BEV, your Osprey, the list goes on and on. And I think the very fact our interest exists is a celebration of those guys and girls that have done some really, really good work out there. But it's about following the money. So from them private equity

funded.

You could probably count your oil majors, your Shell and your BPs, not here to talk about how involved they may or may not be, but they exist because you can go out there and plug into their kit as well. Then you'd probably say there's there's ones you could say that kind of own the land a little bit. MFG EV Clean Power, Sainsbury's Smart Charge, Arnold Clark Charge, those guys and girls they own the land, so the business model is going to be slightly different around how they work. And frankly, there's some really good networks. I can totally see why EV Clean.

Power and smart charge have been out there winning awards. I think then you've got your major utilities, which I start to fall into. You've got the SSC Totale tie-up, that source, the source network out there. You could argue ESB at the same time. There's clearly EDRI, Eon Drive Infrastructure, part of Eon, all major utilities, and I would say that's a good vertical integration. In the simplest way, Gary, we're in the business of making electricity, so we're in the business of selling electricity. What I think is really interesting in terms of a number.

CPO is your vehicle OEMs. Now we've got that with Tesla, they've existed, and we're seeing some really interesting moves from BYD at the same time as well. So for me, helping the listeners and viewers understand is yes, you'll look at us as a CPO or a pure play CPO, but I think it's quite interesting when you geek out about it, is getting into the different versions of that, and that for me is probably four or five different types.

Gary Comerford (: 07:46

can we just talk a little bit about where you're currently located, where your charges are currently located. Tell me again what the the figures are in terms of the number of locations that you've got currently in the UK?

Dev Chana (: 07:57

So so we've been really busy over the last couple of years or so. And and a lot of that work is hugely reliant on on third party partners and th people like that to really help coaches along. from a numbers perspective, by the end of this year I expect to be at about three hundred and eighty bays and of that, three hundred of them are what we'd see as HPC or ultra rapid. And to give an exact number, they're largely connected to three hundred KW chargers. So certainly more of the the chunkier.

End of stuff. That's probably going to be about 55 actual locations. In terms of where we are, maybe I kind of think forwards towards the end of next year as well. We've got a really good chunk of sites across Scotland. This is from kind of Ayr or Glasgow right up to Aberdeen, so kind of like that central belt that goes upwards. And then lots across the West Midlands and pushing out to the west coast as well. Wales for us is on a bit of a charge as well. We've got only one site there.

Currently, but by the end of next year I'll expect to have about five, six sites at the same time. So what we're really trying to do is yes, I get it, 380 bays is not a big number. We've not been going a long time, so I would really challenge and defend that to say in that's in the space of time we've had, that's quite a sensible start. What we're really wedded to here, Gary, is sensible network coverage. And what do I mean by that? What I'm really saying is I don't really want a charger on every street corner.

I I can understand from a consumer perspective that's going to be the best thing ever. But what we've got out there now out there now from a technical perspective is some really competent vehicles with really good technology on them that can have the range to go further. So for us, those 55 sites, 300 to 380 odd bays by the end of this year is fine. What we're really looking to do is have a HPC every 50 miles. So in the simplest way, we put look at a map of the UK.

put a dot there, circle around it 50 miles and then just look at where the next site needs to go. But there's kind of some headlines on where we're sitting sitting right now and where we're expecting to move to.

Gary Comerford (: 09:55

That's fascinating because I was in central Wales a couple of weeks ago on the Rally Cymru the the Welsh EV rally, and it kind of brings up a a a kind of a key philosophical question, which is you're gonna go into Wales, you've just said you're gonna go into Wales. How are you gonna decide where you're gonna put some put a site in Wales? 'Cause I I was like almost in the geographic centre and there are pros and cons about putting some w someone in there, you know.

If you need a charger there, you definitely need a charger there. But there's going to be not a huge demand. So when it comes to finding a new site, are you saying, right, we want to put one here and we'll do whatever we can to find a place there? Or are you going to say, well, we know that there's a location that just happens to be here. It might not be the prime location for what we want, but it's available and that's what we're going to use. Talk to me a little bit about the philosophy of how you decide where your sites are.

Dev Chana (: 10:44

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. F first of all, we were very proud to support the the the Cymru Vad r rally.

We had our hub open in Cross hands for people to come by, stop and charge, and and a few of my colleagues participated in in a rally vehicle at the same time. I'd also say, and this is showing my age a little bit, I'm a bit of a dinosaur in the eighties. I used to live in South Glamorgan in Wales as well. so part of me feels like a bit of a Welshman there as well. So I'm hugely supportive of the work the guys and girls do over there. But you the drive for the question is absolutely right. Now I'm my my head of commercial is gonna chastise me because I'm sure I'm gonna mix this up, but

If I'm driving along the M4 from England into Wales, there's a site will open in the next couple of weeks or so, which will be in Newport. There'll be a site up in Chepstow, Chepstow Castle for those of you that know. Then we're going to go slightly along, and then we're in Caerphilly and then we're slightly along again in Swansea, and then you're hitting the Crosshands site. Now, some will have to go, your viewers or listeners will have to look at a Google Maps and try and look at that. But what they're going to work out pretty quick, they are not 50 miles apart, actually. They're much, much closer. So in essence, this is the drive, and actually let's just finish.

h will probably open in about: 2028

Gary Comerford (: 12:08

That's where I was, yes.

Dev Chana (: 12:10

where you were, and a very beautiful place to go. I take my three kids there

Gary Comerford (: 12:12

Lovely.

Dev Chana (: 12:13

every year also. It's lovely. but really what we're trying to achieve.

There's great. Those those those busy roads, we need a few more. It's kind of the shortest of it because there's strong traffic flow.

When we get into somewhere like Elan Valley, it is going to be quieter. And the honest truth is that's a significant chunk of investment into a location that isn't really going to give us the IRR that some of the busier sites in the M4 are gonna that that are going to give us. And that's me talking very openly as a business leader over here. However, from a customer experience perspective, a needed site. So for us, what we've had to do from a tactical perspective is chase after locations that are at least going to help us get started and get some cash running back into the business to sensibly

prove

The business case and then go complete the gaps on the network. So for us equally, when I mentioned Scotland, and I guess we're picking on these two outer countries in that sense, we've done a really good belt from Glasgow up to Aberdeen. But actually, what if you're driving the NC500, the North Coast 500, something that's a really popular route right now, and some of those parts are pretty rural as well. Well, actually, that then says, right, we've got some really sensible sites in other parts of the country, let's accept a low IRR, whatever we need to do to solve that, because that's what's important.

From a customer experience perspective. So, Gary, I think it's that there's this phases to this. And the first phase is get them in the right locations to prove that this works, build in some customer loyalty, learn from the customer experience, which I think we should talk about, but and then actually go on and start to complete the network gap. So Aberystwyth that part, I think we need to put something in there. Elan Valley I think absolutely the team has a directive to try and chase something within that region as well.

Gary Comerford (: 13:46

A number of your competitors have partnered with some of the fast food chains, for example, and they're putting locations on those sites or with some of the coffee chains likewise. Is that a path that you're considering when it comes to finding potential sites?

Dev Chana (: 14:03

You know, Gary, we had some really quick and sharp learnings here in the the few years that we've we've been sort of supporting this P&L It's a very lean team here. And there are some things we're really wedded to and we really don't compromise on. number one is there really must be a sensible food and beverage provider nearby. And I'm not belittling you know any of the food and beverage providers out there, but we're really looking at your recognized household brand names. so for us what you'll find certainly over the last twenty four months or so

Most, if not all, our sites have been deployed next to something you would recognise, a Starbucks, a Costa, a Tim Hortons, something like that. And that for me is a case of the reality is the vehicle's going to be stuck there for a couple of minutes or so. We're recognizing our customers as saying, well, where's my Americano? Where's my flat white? I've got to sit myself down for a little while.

I want to get the laptop out, I might as well enjoy this charging experience and actually clear some emails at the same time. so the answer is we already do that. The other thing we're probably wedded to outside of the food and beverage is actually a toilet. You know, that human break that we need at the same time as well. And that for us genuinely carries huge level of weight. There isn't we do not want anyone doing anything on the site that's unhygienic. We want the ability that the facility is there. And then then there's the layer above that, 24-7 access at the same time. That site must

Be available 24 hours a day, seven seven days a week, 365 days a year, and you shouldn't be billed for parking your car there while it's charging up at the same time. And then finally, it's the accessibility. We do not, I think we had two sites when we first started, and I'll admit it now. If we could unwind that, I'd go unwind it, but it's very few that didn't have improved accessibility on them at the same time. And and you know, Gary, I kind of think actually, if I'm if I'm

Sending someone out there in the middle of the night and it's raining and it's not well lit, there's puddles in the ground, you know the original sites that a lot of people have done, and that's what they had to do, it feels unsafe. Then we're not going to do it. And that's the other thing. Ever all our HPC sites have CCTV on them at the same time as well. So there's some really important what we would say design principles that got we got wedded into, not just about finding a site, but will the site allow us to achieve this? If it doesn't, we've walked away from them.

Gary Comerford (: 16:12

And when it comes to actually choosing a location, I think there's there's basically two paths you can go down. and different CPOs do one or more or a combination of this. You can buy a piece of land, you can make that part of your portfolio and you can build on it. Or you can rent a piece of land. What's the preference

with Edri?

Dev Chana (: 16:32

Yeah, and and look, I I we watched

And we're watching very closely the purchase of land from other CPOs. And we we as as a from an EDRI perspective, absolutely something we look at. So if we take ourselves and sort of zoom out of the UK and go to some of the other EDRI territories across Europe, Sweden, Germany, Czechia, potentially Romania at the same time have all done exactly that. They've all purchased pieces of land. so absolutely there's the what we would see as the traditional way, which is we're going to rent or lease a plot of land for an extended period of time.

And absolutely buy a plot land. So that business model does does exist within the business. and it's something that we look at quite actively. it it's it's open to us. You you know what I would say is this is a an im a lot of CPOs have learned this from some other CPOs in in mainland Europe. EMBW in Germany is a really good example of that. They absolutely have a policy with as I actually try and buy the land outright. So what we are seeing is

from a a CPO lens in the UK as a case of kind of copy with pride. What are the others doing that's working really well for them? And that's why I guess your question exists. You're seeing it creep in here as well. So absolutely we have a model that does look at that and we do evaluate those things on a monthly basis.

Gary Comerford (: 17:39

If I was to ask a DV driver to give me the name of a nationwide ultra high powered charging network that was not based on the motorway, I suspect the answers would be Instaval, Osprey charging, FastNED, Ionity, maybe raw charging. I'm not

Dev Chana (: 17:55

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 17:55

sure many people would say, EDRI,

do you see this as an issue?

Dev Chana (: 17:58

No.

No, y you know what? You're you're spot on right actually. And i this is something that we we are aware of.

I think there's a few few things there. one thing as a defendable line is if you're not an E mobil if you're not an EV driver, everyone you've just named, you don't know but you know Eon. And that's the truth of it, right? But you and I are EV people. We know the others, right? So this is this is an important differentiation. So there is some real strength in the brand here, which really what you're saying, Gary, is we've not taken any advantage of. There is a reason for that. First of all, let's remember we've not really been going a long time.

Whilst most people know of Eon, from an e mobility CPO perspective, we are totally brand new. And a few moments ago, I was kind of coaching you through a lot of the design principles and how we select a site. So we've really tried to take our time and saying, you know what, we're not going to take that distraction for now. We're going to get a little bit precious about getting the right sites in. If we can get that right, when people come, we believe the loyalty will start to get built in. So for us, we don't even have an app in that sense, which you're probably going to think.

Think

is bonkers. It is work we're doing on, but for us as a case of you know what, we don't want a subscription service, we want no FAF, no FAST, just contactless payment for now. Make it as easy as possible for your new EV driver to navigate the sites, ensure that customer experience is absolutely top-notch. Will we do are we going to crack on and do more work from a brand awareness perspective? Yes is the answer, but we haven't been able to without having a network that we're proud of. So I'll give you an example. I love the work Fastned does.

And I think what's great about Fastned is you can parachute anywhere across Europe and you know you're in a FastNet side. What I would say though, in the UK, EDRI is a much bigger network than Fastned. Most people don't know that, but we are a larger network. But where has they been going a longer period of time? It's a lot of bulletin comment. I think I absolutely love the work they're doing, but I think what it says, Gary, is we actually have absolute right to be more recognised, and it's something we're starting to work on as part of our next phase

of growth.

Gary Comerford (: 19:58

Interesting. Interesting. I I want to come on and talk about pricing and the pricing strategy. Now I used one of your units, ooh, 12 months ago, maybe a little bit a little bit more than that. I think I paid around would it have been around 63, 65 pence a kilowatt hour at the time? Which you know, reasonable, very reasonable

Dev Chana (: 20:17

It yeah. It would have been.

Gary Comerford (: 20:20

for for high power charging. It's cheaper than many others out there.

now I know you've you've bumped the price a little bit since then. What

Dev Chana (: 20:27

We have.

Gary Comerford (: 20:27

what's your what's your sort of baseline ad hoc rate now?

Dev Chana (: 20:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

so let's let's let's go back in time and then I'll take you to present day. So when when you would have used the network there, sixty three pence was kind of the set rate for rocking up to a HP C three hundred KW unit, which you would have used one of them. We had a starting offer at the time that

Kind of we push onto sites the first three to six months was 39 pence per kilowatt hour as well. So that was about a year ago. Didn't really shout about it too much because that's just we're still kind of working ourselves out a little bit. Today where we're at is the opening offer is 47 pence per kilowatt hour. By the way, no subscription, no anything like that, just dash your card in. And the ad hoc price outside of the opening offer is 74 pence per kilowatt hour. So yes, it's moved up a step change. Of course, I know you've heard everyone say this before: wholesale market.

energy

market prices have creaked up, et cetera, et cetera. It is something it is something we we we ponder a lot within our business. And

One of the ponderings we've had is we've really recognised the subscription or kind of membership offers that pretty much everyone you miss mentioned on that list a second ago has something like that. Say, h here, give me a fiver a month or whatever it is, and in return I'm gonna lower the unit pence for you guys. Will we do that? I think it's quite possible, but we're still quite wedded to ensuring there's no faff, there's no fuss, you don't need an app or anything like that. So for us, that's there's a journey we're going on right now, and we expect that to be part of our next phase, but what we're trying to do is ensure

it's still an affordable price. I know 74 isn't the cheapest, but I also I think everybody listening in is also going to recognise it's not the most expensive.

Gary Comerford (: 22:00

Talk to me a little bit more about the forty seven pence that you mentioned. How when does that come into play and and how are you able to

Dev Chana (: 22:03

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 22:06

do that and s and also have a seventy five or seventy four pence? Why how can you

Dev Chana (: 22:11

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 22:11

afford to do both of those?

Dev Chana (: 22:12

No, yeah, so so the f first of all, the the seventy four i the forty s the forty seven and the seventy four, they're totally isolated. You only have one price at the site. So the forty seven is what we call like a starting offer. So when we first open a site, what we're quite keen to do is get people in there to start giving us feedback. And we monitor that really as closely as we possibly can. And for us the case of have we got the site right? Is this something in the early days that you don't like? Is this some snagging that's not working for you? And it's

For us to try and ensure or get people there to effectively soak up and try and hopefully enjoy the charging experience. On a site, Gary, it could exist for probably anywhere from three to six months or so. So for us, it's quite a chunky period. It's not wedded to any subscription or anything like that. And we're quite quiet about it. We don't really talk about it, it's just it's there and come check it out. Once that's done, it flips to the standard rate fundamentally, which is the 74 pence per kilowatt hour. And that's it's as simple as that. It's really just a way of

for

for us to get drivers out to say, hey, look, come have a look. We're here now. What do you think? We're up for feedback. But for us it's really an introductory, hey, we're here now. Come, come, come see if this is a better charging experience versus the one you've got up the road.

Gary Comerford (: 23:23

I like that. I like that. It's I was at the opening of I won't say who it was, but it was a well known charge point operator opening a brand new hub up in the Leeds area. And for the day they opened it, they were charging six pence a kilowatt hour, which I thought was very reasonable. And when I said to the, you know, how are you actually affording this? And they said, Well, that's coming out of the marketing budget. So, you know, it's actually full price charging, but marketing are offsetting the the difference between the

actual price in the sixpence that the people have played. Now I'm assuming that you're not expecting marketing to cover the difference between the forty seven and the seventy four for six months while you gather data, are

you?

Dev Chana (: 24:00

No, y you know, Gary, we we were talking a few minutes ago about the different type of CPOs out there and then the the four or five different buckets they fit in. And I I kinda had a throwaway comment around follow the money as I was giving you, that a bit of an explanation. Right. I think we're quite privileged that EDRI w is is funded within the Eon group and and this is a strategic play over an extended period of time.

in terms of, hey, how's this going? How's it working? Are drivers enjoying this experience? Is the vertical integration a sensible one for us as well? So for us, of course, the business has to hit an IRR. There's no doubt about that.

But it's less stringent, or there's a l the the the scrutiny comes elsewhere in terms of is the utilization right? Have we got the right number of bays there? Can we expand that site when that that the real demand starts to turn itself up? So for us, yeah, they are running at a loss, more or less, okay? But it's it's it it's it's not strictly coming out if a budget somewhere else. It's seen as this is the right strategic move for us to try and ensure this was a sensible decision to to plant bolt the job.

Also, what we have got understanding of is it does take while a while for a site to warm up. We've got better at warming a site up, but we all know that because as EV drivers, we have the sites that we like to go charge at. You know, I readily admit I don't have enough chargers in my own network, so I go and use other CPO networks out there. And I love it. I think there's some really fantastic work going on out there. So for us, that warm-up needs to happen, is you need to find a way to draw them away from wherever they are and try and find them, enjoy the experience.

So for us it's yes we're not making any money and they're making a loss but it is what it is and it's a it's a driver from more of a case of let's not panic about the pennies this year. We're more interested in an extended period of time.

Gary Comerford (: 25:47

Giv given that you just mentioned that your funding cut a lot of your funding comes from Eon itself. Now, am I right in thinking that that is being lent to EDRI at preferential rates which are lower than if you had gone out to the general market to get the same funding?

Dev Chana (: 26:03

Mm not not not exactly. I think what the what there is and and let's scale out a second. So EON SE has a a fantastic vision to to to have a leading charge point operator business across Europe. So about four or five years ago there was a directive to say, hey, let me scramble around and work out what all the different countries are doing.

gonna mess this order up slightly but generally it's right. So if you go to Sweden, Denmark, Czechia, Germany,

Hungary as well, I guess, all quite market-dominant positions, all in slightly different stages of growth, but really solid networks out there. When it comes to Italy, Romania, Netherlands, Poland, and I guess you could throw the UK in the mix. You know, we're all in a slightly different stage of growth. But what EONSC has said is I'm going to fund this because this is the right thing to do from a customer experience perspective, and it allows me to fundamentally be really well

vertically.

integrated what I've done. So it's it's I wouldn't see it as a loan, it's a case of a genuine investment in terms into a growth business, because we are a growth business, and it's a case of right, let's see where this goes over the coming four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years or so. So you're not far off the mark there, but I'd say that the we'd we'd we'd look at it slightly differently. It's in terms of a genuine vision around how do we grow the network from a European expansion perspective.

Gary Comerford (: 27:23

one of the things obviously under the Public Charge Point Regulations twenty twenty three is that you have to be a member of a roaming service. what's what's the EDRI stance when it comes to roaming? Who are you roaming with at the moment?

Dev Chana (: 27:34

Yeah.

the we're we're we we're open to anyone and everybody and we roam with a number of partners out there. With there's no for us there's no animosity to any form of connection or data sharing with anyone out there. Yes, it's part of the regulations, but for us it's very much a case of as it stands, Gary, we want people to come use the charge points and any way we can get access to these people to come have a a good experience with us, we're we're all up for that.

So for us, it's a case of the answers yes to anyone and everyone, largely because we don't have an app and we're not particularly wedded to it as well. So we're really hugely reliant in a good way because it I think we're very much promoting partnerships across the industry. There are some fantastic technical roaming partners out there that are really good at their architecture of what they're done, and we're not going to be able to replicate that. In fact, if anything, for us, it's a case of let's partner with these guys and girls and allow.

them to bring drive customers to us. And at the same time, they've been teaching us a lot around what we're getting right within our network and we're not getting right at the same time. So for us, we quite enjoy that environment, Gary, of actually that peer-to-peer relationship we have of feedback at the same time with guys and girls that really know what they're doing within that space. So for us we're not we love the fact that regulation exists and there's no animosity to connect it with anyone.

Gary Comerford (: 28:50

And we have mentioned it a couple of times already, but I I want to dig into it a little bit deeper. the whole concept of subscriptions. Now I've had conversations with one CEO from a charge point operator who said quite bluntly, we can't make them work. But as you've already mentioned on this conversation, there are a number of CPOs out there who do appear to be making them work.

But flip that on its other side, and that is you've also said you want to make this as simple as possible for a customer to be able to come up. They don't need an app, they don't need a roaming card, they can just pay with a a standard payment card. So is a subscription something that A, you could make work, and B, you would consider, even though it may complicate the matter for perhaps a new EV driver coming in and using your service?

Dev Chana (: 29:35

Yeah, look Gary, we we're we've done a a lot of extensive work in house around subscriptions and membership models, call what you want. We like we're a fan of them, actually, and we we we totally recognise the benefits of them. But what we've got to do within our business here is just take a step back and look at where are we as from a network perspective. So for us

That I can see the subscription membership model falling into this business over the coming 12, 24 months or so. But for us right now, I think we need to work hard on completing the network gap. So we've actually got something that we're total network coverage and we're very, very proud of. So there's no challenge to us on that perspective. What I would also say is we need to remember the subscription model probably suits the likes of people like you and I, and I mean that in a broad sense. We're EV drivers, we've had EVs.

For a significantly chunky period of time. We're roaming around the country, so for us, access to cheaper charging is quite important. So that fiver or whatever you put away a month to the subscription service, it's justifiable, it's affordable. Where we are also, though, we have a significantly large chunk of people that are traversing into EVs for the very, very first time. And for us, that is going to continue to happen over the coming years or so. And we see the registrations grow month on month from the SMM.

as well so I always get excited about that but what I'm also reminded of is yeah we have a lot of new EV drivers out there so for our network right now we're quite wedded to ensuring anyone brand new we're not we're not trying to bamboozle them with that animosity that our sector has is the charge is not gonna work

You're gonna need an RFP ID card. Have you downloaded the app? So for me or for us and the team here, it's like, will we do the subscription model? Yeah, and we've talked about it, we've got some processes in place to deploy that. but we're kind of more wedded to the fact of actually just wanna keep it simple, no faff, no fuss, no app right now.

Gary Comerford (: 31:23

gonna talk about the the actual site designs and layouts themselves. Now I've obviously I've used I think I've just used the one site and you that site itself had I think they were would they have been Alpitronics?

Dev Chana (: 31:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been Appatronics, yes. Do you remember where the site

was, Gary?

Gary Comerford (: 31:41

It

it's just off the one at Barnsley.

Dev Chana (: 31:45

Elmhurst Lane. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Junction thirty seven.

Gary Comerford (: 31:46

That sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah.

That's the one. That's the one. is are you standardizing on Alpatronic across the whole of your your network?

Dev Chana (: 31:56

so so first of all, that's that's a site that, to be honest, is pretty much an example of most of the sites, actually. so so I think actually if you've been there, you're going to have the measure of that type of charging environment that EDRI sets out. So the question is Albatronic, first of all. Look, we are we are hardware agnostic, but

Let me just go kind of up the food chain a little bit. So Eon in Essen in Germany has something they call the Eon Lab or the Eon Test Lab. for those guys and girls listening in on YouTube or wherever, give it a quick Google. There's there's loads of interesting videos on that side as well. What in short, what I'm really saying is it's the largest electrical laboratory in Europe that I'm reliably told. And you know, you can get trucks in there, there's obviously every EV charger on the planet in there, solar back solar inverters, back.

batteries, the heat pumps, etc. etc. That facility is there for the Eon group to effectively test stuff or kit before it's let out into the wild. So for us if we're deploying an EV charger it first of all has to have that that stamp from the lab.

Alpatronic absolutely has that stamp. I'm quite wedded to having a very uniform charging experience out there because what I want to do is it's the same thing I was talking about a few seconds ago. You rock up to a site, and I I don't want you to feel a moment of that anxiety creeping in. I was like, gosh, how do I do this? Do I do I connect it now? Do I do this? I was like, no, I've been here before. It that site that you've been to, yeah, I get it, and that's the same site down the road at the other site down the road or whatever it is. So we're massive on Alpatronic units as well.

We are going to test out a few others and I'm really excited about that. We're going to put try Siemens units at the same time. I think there's also some value around some different tech in terms of how they pump power out as well. But from us though, Alpatronic is the dominant preferred charger type.

Gary Comerford (: 33:42

Mm-hmm. Okay, that's cool. couple of bits of feedback for you, which is I when I used the site in Barnsley, I literally handed my sat map card to my 18-year-old niece who has no interest in this at all. And I went, sort it out. And she went, she looked at the screen, she went, boop, boop, boop, slap, plugged it in, worked perfectly. So no anxiety. I've got two nieces, two nephews and a niece. They both know how to do this. None of them drive electric cars yet.

I'm getting them into it. I'm getting them into it. But you know, they found them really easy to use.

Dev Chana (: 34:13

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 34:14

But the the next sort of thing is I'm a huge fan of the chem power chargers. And one of

Dev Chana (: 34:19

Mm-hmm.

Gary Comerford (: 34:20

the reasons I like the chem power chargers is because it allows you to identify or or or it solves this problem of I'm not getting what I expect. My car can take 150

Dev Chana (: 34:30

Yeah, yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 34:31

kilowatts, I'm only getting 90. With the chem power,

Dev Chana (: 34:33

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 34:33

obviously you've got well, it's power, it's

site limited or your sh your chairing power or it's vehicle limited and you can see that on the screen. That's one of the reasons

Dev Chana (: 34:40

Mm-hmm.

Gary Comerford (: 34:41

I love the chem bowers. With the Alpatronics, is there the option to have something like that? Do you have input to say we want this particular piece of functionality within the screen, within the software?

Dev Chana (: 34:52

Yeah, you f first of all, just momentarily rewinding the tape, what what I love about young people today, your niece or nephews, is you you're absolutely spot on. They can rock up to any piece of tech or kit and it's they've worked it out super, super fast. and and for us actually for us we love that, but

What we think about when we're what we've been thinking about over the last since you visited the site twelve months ago is what we've been thinking about is, forgive me Gary, the dinosaurs like you and I, in terms of or or people new into the industry, is a case of, gosh, there's a screen here, there's a bunch of like contactless bits and bobs on it, this is suddenly getting and the the charge is showing different colours on it. Am I getting overwhelmed at the same time? And the screen we worked out is a really easy and powerful way of trying to reassure and reduce that anxiety. In answer to your question.

Question

that's sorted. The chargers now already do that. I think we've had three, four updates since in the last year or so, and one of them is fundamentally in the simplest form, putting a message on the charger when it's plugged in saying, Is it limited by the charger or is it limited by the car? Because actually, that was one of the things we were getting some feedback really really fast in terms of the charger isn't giving me what I need. And we're explaining to people like, well, actually, it's your vehicle in this case, but the charge is now actively showing that. On top of that, we've added some additional overlays in terms of what you

What you're really talking about is the charging curve in terms of where it's ramping up, where it's hold on, that's on the charger now as well at the same time. And what I would add, whilst I think is your nieces, nieces worked out quite easily how to work through that charge, and we probably had a few more buttons to push back then, maybe. Now we've reduced that down significantly. So, Gary, that's across everything. So if you find yourself back at junction 37 on the M1 or where you are, this is a much better user experience. It sounds like it was fine a year ago, we weren't happy.

With it, and it's it's it's significantly improved since then, so you've got way more information being fired at you. So, yes, Alpatronic allow us to play with the screens. I'm I'm actually told EDRI from Alpatronic is probably one of the only CPOs that is aggressively, I mean this in the most casual way, faffing around with the settings on the screen, but that's because actually we love that UX, and that's important because for us that's a touch point we've got with the customer, and we don't have enough at the moment. So for us, getting that interface.

right is is super important to us.

Gary Comerford (: 37:05

Absolutely. Absolutely.

It's really, really good to hear that um that kind of functionality is now in the the Alpatronic units because it's it's my personal bugbear and anything we can do to make it easier for, you know, even the dinosaurs like you and I, I think that's a hundred percent.

Dev Chana (: 37:21

But you know with

Gary Comerford (: 37:22

Now we've already talked

Dev Chana (: 37:23

Y you n you know what I I I I agree with there? And this is a this is where it's okay to copy with pride. A young network like ours that's only been going for a short period of time.

The privilege we've got is we've been able to scrutinize the bad work, which no one really wanted to do, or out there, and also copy the good work as well, which is why I always celebrate the other CPOs. I think they're all doing a wonderful job, and we've all got better at here. And that's the privilege. And the Kempowers great, you love that functionality. I agree with you, so did I. So it's a case of find a way to get this on the charger.

Gary Comerford (: 37:53

Absolutely. Now we've already talked about PAS 1899 compliance accessibility. you've talked about closed circuit TVs at your sites, things like that. One thing that, again, another personal bugbear of mine, and if you've listened to any of my prior prior episodes with ChargePoint Operators, you'll know my big bugbear is canopies. Now I understand the rationale behind not putting canopies in at certain sites, but I also understand that.

It's very, very difficult to find a petrol station without a canopy. And the reconciliation of those two two different aspects is I think where the the conflict is arising internally within me. So what's the the EDRI stance on canopies at charging sites?

Dev Chana (: 38:34

So so first of all, within EDRI, and I'm gonna zoom back out again and look at us from a a European lens for a second, do we do canopies? Yes we do. There are s locations across the eleven country work in that absolutely have canopies of different type. You mentioned petrol station four courts, yes we've got a pile of those sites across Europe that have that very large, big canopy and then we've got certainly the smaller, more stuff that just covers the charger at the same time as well. So absolutely from a that perspective we do do it. If I zoom us in

back into the UK business

What we've really talked about, Gary, over the last few minutes or so is charges that are parti part of a wider retail environment, which is your Costa, your Starbucks, etcetera, somewhere where you're gonna it's a sensible place to stop because it's safe, there's a food and beverage there, there's toilets there, things like that. They aren't wedded to getting the canopy in fundamentally because it's in some wider bricks and mortar type stuff very close nearby. And we've struggled and the honest truth is, Gary, we've struggled with some of the planning restrictions out there.

We've had to make tactile decisions to say, all right, what do I really need? I really need to charge. And this is me thinking as an EV driver, let's get that charger in, and then we've got to come back and tackle getting the canopy in where we get the planning through with that one. But these are, I would say, and I'm not belittling our sites, are more smaller sites to get some network coverage in there. When we start to move into our larger strategic sites, they will need to have canopies, but they will be the larger bay, larger sites where we actually have a greater degree of likeness to control.

What's happening there at the same time? So, in answer to your question, Gary, are we do we like canopies? Yes, we do. We're doing it in other countries, and we're supposed to we follow the model, we follow each other a little bit. So that design still exists. Have we done it in the UK? And I think it's worth remembering, really, we've not been going a long time. So for us, it's a case of right, let's prioritize and compartmentalize what do we really need to get on with, first of all. well, we better get some charges in the ground. Great.

Is this working? Is this charging experience right? Yes it is. But what you're really coaching me towards, Gary, and others are, and I and I and I I soak this feedback in is fine dev, you're getting some of it right, but I I want some rain cover here. Okay, alright, cool. That's I I'm hearing you as well. That's got to be the next stage of where we're shifting to.

Gary Comerford (: 40:40

What sort of success slash failure have you had with putting appropriate signage in around the sites? And I'm I'm talking about, you know, within a quarter of a mile or half a mile of the site saying, Look, if you want your ch your E V charging, come over here, take this left, take this right, take this junction at the roundabout.

Dev Chana (: 40:59

You know, signage is I I mean, it's been such an interesting journey. So so one thing is it's a it's a small team here within EDRI UK. and what's great is for having a small team allows everybody's opinion to filter in. So if I take mine, I I I said I'm gonna say something now, I'm gonna get lost tomorrow. I have I feel I've got a reasonably good sense of direction. And here I am, I'll probably be lost tomorrow when I get in my car. But the point I'm making is I don't need signage.

Like, actually, the dashboard or the app or whatever is telling me where I need to go. When I get roughly in the vicinity, I'm yeah, it's gonna be over there, right? But we absolutely have team members that said, Deb, that was not my experience of visiting our site over there. The charges wasn't very clear. We need more bay marking, we need an arrow there. Maybe we should consider putting a sign over there. And and that's been an and learned a lesson for me in terms of this is exactly the right thing where you need to have a diverse bunch of people in your team with different

Gary Comerford (: 41:50

Yes.

Dev Chana (: 41:50

driving. So, in answer to signage, what we've increasingly got.

wedded twos, we're typically on retail parks which have those big totem poles on them. So it's a case of we must get on there, right? First of all, so people can see us by well the totem pole have

you know, y you your your bed outfit, your McDonald's, your whatever, and then EV charging, Eon Drive is listed there at the same time. But some of these retail parks, there's a lot of busyness going on. So actually we even within the retail park environment, it's signage within there. It says your brown sign or your white sign that says E on drive this way at the same time. So it's not just a case of getting on the totem pole. I get it. When you get there as a driver you're like well I'm here now, help me out here a little bit, right? So it's a case of

smaller signs on poles and as you get closer to the site on the road at the same time, EV charging with an arrow up that way at the same time. So for us, Gary, it it's actually been a really interesting and good learning for us. So whenever we deploy a site, if I think about when I was saying earlier that opening offer, those first three to six months or so,

What the deployment manager would have done is a case of I've built the site to the best of my ability and I believe this is the right thing, but every team member is promoted to say, go visit that site. Is it is the customer experience what we're expecting it to be? And equally for the same point, we're inviting our customers at the same time, say, is this working for you or not? So signage is it's not just Gary's

Gary Comerford (: 43:07

Yeah.

Dev Chana (: 43:08

short answer, it's not just a case of put bunging a charger in the corner of a car park, we're absolutely wedded to getting the signage in at the same time.

Gary Comerford (: 43:15

Yeah.

And I think what's key with signage, and a lot of people don't really appreciate this, is that the vast majority of signage for EV charges is not meant for the E V drivers. It's meant for the non E V drivers. It's so that they've got a confidence of saying, actually there are a way more chargers in the ground than we thought, but because they weren't signposted, we didn't actually notice them. And I think that's the value of having a a a good set of signage in in the local area. So

sweet.

Dev Chana (: 43:41

I

I think you're making a really good point there. And and for us as well, because we are and this my team is not gonna berate me for saying this, we're EV geeks and nerds here, so all of us keep an eye on the various forums, Facebook forums online or WhatsApp groups, things like that. and you're right, you know, your casual person saying, Well, I live round here, so I don't need a charger but I've posted say, Hey, there's a hub here, so next time Auntie So and so visits, you can charge here, don't worry. So I think you're right, it's actually telling the people that aren't E V drivers, it's a safe place to come and drive a vehicle.

Gary Comerford (: 44:11

Yep. Yep. Now, which other charge point operators do you think work in your niche? I mean, Gridserve for example, I wouldn't see them as a competitor to you because A, they're much more expensive, and B, they're generally located on motorways and you're not. So of the potentially the ones that we've already discussed today, who would you see as

Dev Chana (: 44:27

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 44:30

direct competitors?

Dev Chana (: 44:32

Yeah, yeah. Look look, I I'm I'm I absolutely will answer your question, but I I think there's a repeated theme here is I'm an E V driver, right? so for me, I I use everybody's charge points. And and for me sometimes it's a case of I've not used that type of hardware before. taking the brand off it for a second, I wanna go geek out and experience that type you like Kempower right? So that you would have absolutely been there's one or two CPOs out there that dominantly use them. There's some BYD chargers out there that are used by a major

CPOs are actually I want to go try out that. Is that the same as an Albatronic experience at the same time? From a competitor landscape, though, I think that's quite an easy answer for us. I'm gonna say, and I adore them all: Fastned Allego, Ionity. Now, why am I saying that? so EDRI, on a European level, we take, we're run out of Essen in Germany, so we take central services out there.

Fastned is no different. They're gonna take their central services out of Holland, out of the Netherlands at the same time. And what they have is almost tiger teams dotted around in different European countries. We're exactly the same. So for me, and that's Allego at the same time, and probably Ionity at the same time. So for me, how the business is structured, the ethos and the type of people you've got kicking around, that's how I'm comparing us as competitors. I'm not even thinking about price and where they are positioned. I'm thinking about are those guys and girls roughly the same as the guys and girls that.

Gary Comerford (: 45:55

Mm-hmm. And on the topic of charge point operators and who who's actually out there in the in the ether at the moment, I'd like to ask this to as many people in the EV sphere as as I can. Where

Dev Chana (: 46:08

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 46:08

are we gonna be in ten years with the number of charge point operators in this country? Consolidation. There's not gonna be 150. What's the number gonna be?

Dev Chana (: 46:15

Y you know, I th I think I think probably it's hard to probably hard to put what's the number gonna be, but we're gonna be single digits, let's say. we're not gonna be in the double digit space, right? So I think for me that's probably something I'm quite comfortable with. As an EV driver, we've got to all work towards improved harmony and standardization.

And so for me, I'm quite good with consolidation happening. I think it's a good thing from an EV driver experience perspective. so I am a champion of it and I I I like I know what we're really hinting at, Gary, is over the last twelve months or so, there's been a lot of that's but that's been happening. Um

UK space from an EDRI perspective. in Edri in Netherlands we bought BP's CPO over there, so that sits with an EDRI. in Italy we bought the EMBW business over there, so that sits with an EDRI. In Sweden we bought the Clever Network or Cleaver Network, that sits with an EDRI. So even from a European lens, we've taken a view of, hey, yeah, we should start to participate in that consolidation angle there. But Gary, in answer to your question, it'll be in the single digits or so. And for me, I think

I think that's going to be a really good step towards ensuring that customer experience is standardized and harmonised so it's as easy as possible. And y you know one Gar Gary, what I'm really wedded to is this has got to be dull. What do I mean by that? At the moment

If we or you and I talk to our friends, peers, and whatever, and they go out there and they talk about a charging experience, it's still a bit novel, it's still a bit of an exciting event that's happened. Whereas for anyone that around you that's still driving a petrol or diesel car,

they're not going to talk to you about it because that is so dull. I think mission complete for us in an industry is it's just not talked about because there's no range anxiety, there's no charger anxiety, there's no animosity, there's no confusion, it's just like, well, this is a non-event. So for me, that consolidation I think will help us get towards dull.

Gary Comerford (: 48:06

Is there anything we haven't discussed today that you think might be of interest to the viewers and listeners?

Dev Chana (: 48:12

what I would say is I'm really I what I really love about our industry, and I I I I feel I feel terrible. I've I've called us both dinosaurs during this call. Please do not take that as a belittling comment. But you know what I love about what we do? You go to all the shows, I to look at the people around me. We have some really talented young people that are so enthusiastic about coming into our sector.

And and and and for me I think that's super important for the next and if we're talking about consolidation you use like what happens in ten years' time, that's super important for the next decade or so. We've got some really good talent and fresh blood that are pushing our sector from a technical perspective and a customer user experience perspective to ensure we're getting that right. So for me, I've really started to enjoy over the last couple of years or so, fresh people in the room, fresh blood in the room that may have traditionally not been in our sector.

But I'm starting to push and budge the needle in the right way. So for me, I would say, Gary, I think we've got to stay open to having allowing some of the more experienced safe pair of hands, and I and sometimes try and count myself in that, being open towards actually allowing some fresh blood in to give some fresh ideas and perspectives. And I really enjoy that biosector. I think it's been very welcoming of new talent.

Gary Comerford (: 49:25

Totally agree. And I think that is the perfect point to draw this conversation to a close. So Dev Chana, appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

Dev Chana (: 49:34

Gary, thank you so much for having me. That was fun.

Gary Comerford (: 49:37

So, what do we learn from that discussion? Well, I was fascinated to learn that EDRI are actually bigger than Fastned Now, in terms of install charges, that's probably right, although neither of them break the list of Zapmap's top 15 biggest charge point operators in terms of install charges or the top 10 rapid charging networks. I was also fascinated to hear about EDRI's focus on trying to build out their network's baseline before they start to move towards things like subscriptions.

And promoting the brand itself. Now, the Eagle-Eyed Amongst You will have seen and heard what Dev said about new sites. They open them, and for a period of six to nine months, they price charging at those sites at about 47 pence a kilowatt for 300 kilowatt charging. So keep an eye out on the socials, etc., for a new site opening. And if it's near you, get down and get to your cheaper charging. You know,

it makes sense.

And that's the show for this week. I hope you enjoyed listening to it.

This week's show was put together with the help of Dev Chana. Many thanks for his time.

Gary Comerford Zapmap Intro (: 50:37

The EV Music's podcast is sponsored by ZapMap, the go to app for EV drivers to find and pay for public charging with confidence.

Gary Comerford Boilerplate (: 50:45

If you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms, or other general messages to pass on to me, I can be reached at info at evmusings.com. On the socials, I'm on BlueSky at evmusings.bsky.social. I'm also on Instagram at EV Musings where I post short videos and podcast extracts regularly. Why not follow me there? Many thanks to everyone who supports me through Patreon, on a monthly basis, and through coffee.com on an ad hoc one. Regular listeners will know about my two ebooks.

So you've gone electric and so you've gone renewable. They're 99p each or equivalent, and you can get them on Amazon. Check out the links in the show notes for more information, as well as the link to my regular EV Musings newsletter and associated articles. Now my stats show that a lot of people watch this on YouTube, but they're not subscribers. So if you're one of those, why not hit that button and the notification bell so you don't miss out? Thank you very much.

Gary Comerford (: 51:40

If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you so much. Why not let me know you've got to this point by messaging me at musingtv.bisky.social or leaving a comment on YouTube with the words eon and on and on and on. Hashtag if you know you know, nothing else. And thanks as always to my co-founder Simone You know, he's looking to break a Guinness world record on his electric unicycle. Fastest time from getting up to top speed.

and ending up crashed into a bush at the side of the route. I wonder what he was aiming for. He said he wasn't totally sure what the time was gonna be.

Dev Chana (: 52:18

but we're gonna be single digits, let's say. we're not gonna be in the double digit space, right?

Gary Comerford (: 52:22

Thanks for listening. Bye bye now.