310 The Mid-season Round Table 16 Episode

Belinda Automotive (: 00:00

many people do not buy a car based on the horsepower. What they do buy a car on is based on the usability. So what does it do for you? If you're a single mother, how does it support your children in the back? If you are a person that loves adventuring, how much mile mileage are you going to be able to get? Are you going to be able to go on your rural trips? I think it's all about bringing it back.

Tracy (: 00:19

overwhelmingly new cars are financed. So I think it said 90 % of new private cars were bought on finance. So, know, but that cost per month is really, really critical to

an awful lot of people.

Gary C (: 00:37

Hi, I'm Gary, and this is episode 310 of Eevee Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles, and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. And welcome to the mid-season roundtable episode. Before we start, I do want to remind you to do all the usual stuff to help the algorithm find me. Please like, subscribe, comment, etc. You know the drill.

So, welcome to episode 310, the podcast, our mid-season roundtable. as usual, some specially invited guests.

We'll discuss important matters in the EV space. And when we've put the world to rights, we'll continue with the next topic.

Gary Comerford Zapmap Intro (: 01:12

The EV Music's podcast is sponsored by ZapMap, the go to app for EV drivers to find and pay for public charging with confidence.

Gary C (: 01:20

So let me introduce my two guests. First up, we have Belinda Guy, aka Belinda Automotive. Belinda is an online content creator focusing on women's experiences within the automotive and motorsports space. She's also got a nine-year-long career within the automotive industry, predominantly working within product marketing roles across OEM and EV charging.

But also has experience with insurance and vehicle repair. Welcome Belinda.

Belinda Automotive (: 01:45

Thanks very much for having me.

Gary C (: 01:48

You're more than welcome. My next guest

is Tracy Kearns. Tracy is starting a new role with Welsh Government as transport decarbonisation delivery lead. How are you gonna get that on a on a little sort of thing there? she's worked in transport for almost ten years and has spent the last two years as head of charging infrastructure at the Welsh at Welsh Government, in the Welsh Government. Whatever. Welcome, Tracy.

Tracy (: 02:11

Thank you, Gary.

actually we have to

have that bilingually so it's going to be really long nameplate.

Gary C (: 02:18

good grief. I'd consider that of course, but there we go. So if you watched a round table before, you'll know the format. So you get to do a little bit of an introduction, we'll have a discussion and move on. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna start with Belinda, then Tracy, and I'll bring up the rear, so to speak, as I usually do. over to you, Belinda. What's your topic of conversation?

Belinda Automotive (: 02:39

So

I want to talk about there's just too much jargon in the world of EV charging at the moment, and it is making EV charging really inaccessible to a lot more people than we think. That's mine.

Gary C (: 02:53

Okay, give us some examples.

Belinda Automotive (: 02:56

So, in the world of EV charging, when we use the things like pence per kilowatt hour,

How easy is that for somebody to understand that hasn't quite yet entered into the EV sphere? Especially when they're looking at things like how much your petrol or diesel might cost, that's written down, it's almost easier to understand. But when it's translated into something else that doesn't quite look familiar, for I think a lot of people in those groups it can feel a little bit daunting,

Tracy (: 03:26

like to do that.

Belinda Automotive (: 03:28

scary, perhaps even more challenging. But even though when we know as

As individuals, it's not, but that's one example. I think there is so there's a lot of technic technical terms and terminology that's often used as well within the industry space. So even when we're trying to talk about EV charging from more of an automotive perspective, it's often quite jargon-heavy terms that can even lock out businesses. So, an example of that might be the term OCPP or some of the past.

and standard terminology that we just kind of fling around within this industry.

Gary C (: 04:09

Tracy, any thoughts?

Tracy (: 04:10

couldn't agree more Belinda. It's one of those things and I think you sit there and you go, so I've got a petrol car and it cost me this much per mile and I've got a diesel car and it cost me this much per mile. But you look at an EV and you look at those charging prices and you haven't got a clue how they compare. So in terms of trying to explain the total cost of ownership and the benefits of owning an EV in terms of cheaper running costs, that one is a major stumbler, isn't it?

Belinda Automotive (: 04:39

Mm. And I I think even for businesses looking to go towards Eevee, whether it's through company car, fleet, I still think that we lean on a lot of heavy jargon in the space. And perhaps there's not quite yet that like generalized understanding. I do think as an industry we're starting to get a little bit complacent with our language, and that is now causing people to ultimately maybe zone out from the argument altogether and

Even wonder if it's worthwhile. Within my alt within my product marketing career, I've often found within the B2B space that there's two reasons that people make a purchase decision, and one of them is because they don't want to be fired, the other one is because they want a pay rise. So when things are really complicated, we don't want to do extra work as buyers to understand what the benefits are, we want them served on a platter.

Gary C (: 05:35

Hm. So is this a B to

B issue or is this a B to C issue?

Belinda Automotive (: 05:39

Both. Honestly, both. Because at the end of the day, every single human being sorry, every single buyer is a human being.

Gary C (: 05:47

Okay, let me play devil's advocate, which I'm quite well known for doing.

Tracy (: 05:50

you

Belinda Automotive (: 05:51

Go for it.

Gary C (: 05:52

you brought up a a couple of points there. one of them was related to miles per kilowatt hour. And you know, that could be a confusing statistic or a confusing method of calculation. And I would say, yes, but I would also say miles per hour was also a confusing statistic.

Or measure until you understood it. You also

Belinda Automotive (: 06:14

Hmm Yes.

Gary C (: 06:17

then went on and said people don't understand what 80 pence per kilowatt hour meal means in terms of pence per mile. Actually, Tracy

Belinda Automotive (: 06:26

Yes.

Gary C (: 06:27

might said that. But I would throw that back and say, well, what's one pound sixty-six a liter in terms of pence per mile? And I think what we're actually encounting here is not

jargon. It's just the calculations we have to do are the same. We're just working on different starting points. What do you say to that?

Belinda Automotive (: 06:51

Yes.

I I do think it's a bit of both. So I do think the jargon part in it is where we use that terminology. So as you rightfully said, miles per hour, yes, years ago we couldn't get to that understanding until it was explained to us. And now it's almost like, well, the only real differentiation we've got is miles per hour or kilom kilometres per hour, depending on where you are in the world.

But it's taking that time for people to understand it and have it explained to you. So for example, when you learn to drive, you understand what the miles per hour is as part of that lesson. But we're introducing, and this is for maybe not necessarily for drivers now who are learning to drive, who may be looking towards more EV and being able to immerse themselves in that world. But where we are experienced drivers or have been on the roads for years, it's a new concept that we have to learn.

And I think there is something in it about bringing it down to that layer. So when you said perfectly, well, what does like 1.68 pence per gallon mean? Actually I think that's a really good sym like symbol for us in the industry to use to help people go, it's not as much of a an issue as I thought. It's it's about bringing in those examples that mean something to the lay person.

Gary C (: 08:09

Hmm.

Tracy (: 08:10

Can I make a

Belinda Automotive (: 08:10

Ha ha

Tracy (: 08:10

point there as well? You were talking about the price per litre or the sort of metric version or the kilometre version. I know a lot of people who still talk about miles per gallon

Belinda Automotive (: 08:26

Mm.

Tracy (: 08:27

and you can't buy wet fuels in gallons anymore. So people are doing conversions to make it meaningful to them. So maybe we shouldn't.

arguably be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole in terms of looking at those kind of efficiencies. It's a bit of a radical suggestion but thought I'd

Belinda Automotive (: 08:51

Yeah.

Tracy (: 08:51

make it.

Belinda Automotive (: 08:52

Nah, I I agree

Gary C (: 08:53

Mm-hmm.

Belinda Automotive (: 08:54

and I

I think it is for people, it's when you see it, that initial piece. So if if none of us knew what an EV was and if we saw it for the first time, that pence per kilowatt hour, we would go, okay, well, what does that actually mean? And I think it's about putting ourselves those younger versions of ourselves where we wouldn't have ever been in the world of EV, and putting our that person in the shoes of many buyers and consumers today, because we're so well versed in it. We could probably, well, we absolutely could talk.

About it in our sleep, but for so many people that are still new to the space, and it's often the time that I just think they're forgotten about. It's that they're an aspirational buyer, but we need someone to purchase now. Whereas, well, they're gonna want to buy at some point, so we're gonna need to make sure we keep that language clean and useful for them. But I agree.

Gary C (: 09:47

Is it a case of we need to rephrase how we're explaining this to people or how we're phrasing this? Or is it a case of the phrasing's okay, but we need some additional education over and above this? Because at the end of the day, pens per kilowatt hour, miles per kilowatt hour, pens per liter, pens per gallon, miles per gallon, I think they're all the same, but they mean different things to different people. And I think if we can

Belinda Automotive (: 10:12

Yes.

Gary C (: 10:12

educate if we can have a layer of education that says when somebody says

.: 54609

to get the the price per mile. Is it as simple as

Belinda Automotive (: 10:50

Yeah. I

Gary C (: 10:51

as simple slash complex as that?

Belinda Automotive (: 10:53

Well

I think that's two eventualities. I think there's a third, and the third is knowing your audience. It brings it back even more. If you have nobody is bringing that up to start with, there's no point in talking about it until that education piece is done, right? It's about, I think it's more around the experiences. So when I just think as an industry we need to be more mindful of the language that we use, the technical information that we display and portray, because the more we put these massive charts up that

Maybe such small little line drawings that are almost like I don't know, or almost like a child's drawing where we can't quite decipher what it is. Without that commentary, without that easy to understand explanation, it means nothing, and actually people zone out. So before they even get to that conversation, they're not even interested in it because it's not down to their level.

Tracy (: 11:45

It's quite, I think it's quite an interesting point in terms of what people can relate to because if you're thinking about

you know, I've got an EV and I'm telling my neighbour how brilliant it is. I am probably more likely to say I was spending a hundred quid a week on diesel and now it costs me five quid than I am

Belinda Automotive (: 12:09

Yes.

Tracy (: 12:10

to go into the ins and outs of my, you know, my pence per mile. So it's making it real for people, isn't it? And actually selling a tangible benefit.

Belinda Automotive (: 12:23

Yeah. I mean, you don't buy a car

Well, many people do not buy a car based on the horsepower. What they do buy a car on is based on the usability. So what does it do for you? If you're a single mother, how does it support your children in the back? If you are a person that loves adventuring, how much mile mileage are you going to be able to get? Are you going to be able to go on your rural trips? I think it's all about bringing it back. And that's where I think as an industry, if we bring in that jargon, we're automatically shutting out those experiences for people and making it unrelatable.

I think all right.

Gary C (: 12:57

Interesting because there is a not necessarily another wrinkle on here, but as I am as it's my podcast and I like telling stories, I was sat with somebody recently who was concerned that they wouldn't be able to afford an I'd love to get an EV they're they're way too expensive. and I said, Yeah, well, hm, yeah. I said, How much I said, you got a car now? He Yeah, I've I've got a an old BMW and I said, And and how much should you pay for that? He I'm paying for it. I'm paying about two hundred pounds a month.

I said, yeah, okay, okay. How much are you paying for diesel? I'm paying 160

Belinda Automotive (: 13:31

Yeah.

Gary C (: 13:33

pounds a month. I said, okay, so you're paying 360 pounds, and I'm running at a Polestar two for 305 pounds plus about 15 quid in fuel because I c in electricity, because I can charge at home. And he could also charge at home. And just having that conversation, you could almost see the the

the light in his eyes kind of go, right. So the headline is not that these are expensive, the headline is that if you know what you're doing, they're actually cheaper than an equivalent kind of of petrol vehicle. I just thought that might be an appropriate anecdote to tell.

Belinda Automotive (: 14:14

I and I agree, I absolutely think it's the human stories that go beyond it. So whilst we want to get rid of the jargon, like it's there's a time and a place for it.

We actually need to tell those human stories because the more somebody can see themselves within an EV or even if it's a company car, getting that exposure, understanding if they're making a purchase on behalf of their company, whether it's for a fleet or EV charging infrastructure, whatever it is, understanding what that human experience is and actually what it can do for them, that's that's ultimately why make people make purchase decisions when they can see there's a benefit to their situation.

Gary C (: 14:49

Mm. Tracy, any final points?

Tracy (: 14:52

Yeah, I was looking up some stats earlier and overwhelmingly new cars are financed. So I think it said 90 % of new private cars were bought on finance. So, know, but that cost per month is really, really critical to

Belinda Automotive (: 15:12

Mm.

Tracy (: 15:12

an awful lot of people. they're not, okay, if they're going out and they want to buy something outright, it's...

probably more likely going to be a secondhand car. But even that secondhand market is moving more to a finance model because people are used to paying

Belinda Automotive (: 15:26

Mm.

Tracy (: 15:27

a monthly rent or a monthly mortgage and a monthly phone contract and a monthly subscription for, you know, whatever TV packages they have. And I think it's that, you know, breaking it down into something that's meaningful, as you were saying, Gary, this is going to cost you three hundred quid a month, not you are buying a forty five grand car because

not actually

Belinda Automotive (: 15:48

Yeah.

Tracy (: 15:49

buying a 45 grand car anyway. So I think that's, yeah, it's a really sensible way of getting that message across.

Gary C (: 15:58

There is another aspect to this. And again, I'm going to tell a little anecdote. I was at the Everything Electric event over the weekend, and there were two companies literally right next to each other. One was Ford, the OEM, and one was a secondhand company that was sponsoring the whole event. They had identical Ford Explorers next to each other. One was brand new at Ford, one was secondhand.

5,000 miles, it was about eight months old, etc. Because of the way the finance worked, it was it actually worked out about the same price to buy the brand new one as it did to buy the secondhand one, purely because of the way the percentage, the APR on the finance

Belinda Automotive (: 16:40

Yeah.

Gary C (: 16:41

on the secondhand one was versus the the new one. Whilst the overall the headline price, you know, you're looking at a 45,000 pound brand new car versus I think it was 27,000 pounds.

that same car after nine months on the road, but on a month by

Tracy (: 16:56

Mm.

Gary C (: 16:56

month basis you were talking not not that far off the same, which I found fascinating and a little curious, shall we say.

Tracy (: 17:05

you

Belinda Automotive (: 17:06

Yeah. I would

Gary C (: 17:08

Cool.

Belinda Automotive (: 17:08

be interested to know who would go for what car in what circumstance because perception somebody would say well clearly I'm gonna go for the second hand because the depreciations happened or somebody might go well I want that like if it I'm gonna get it for the same price, I'm gonna get the brand new one because it's the brand new features. It could be exactly the same model. It could

Gary C (: 17:28

Yeah.

Belinda Automotive (: 17:30

like I'd be interested to know what people would go for based on their perception.

Gary C (: 17:35

And it goes back to what Tracy was

saying there, which is that if you were financing that on a the brand new one, then obviously that's that's the amount you're paying per month. But if you were buying the second hand one, there is a chance that you would buy it for cash or you'd get a bank loan, which

Belinda Automotive (: 17:50

Yeah.

Gary C (: 17:51

maybe at a lower APR, which means that the monthly payment would be lower than the the new one. So it all depends on how

Belinda Automotive (: 17:58

Mm-hmm.

Gary C (: 17:58

you're gonna finance it, definitely.

Tracy (: 17:59

And there's always a chance as well, isn't there, that you get a nine-month-old car and it could actually be newer than the other one if that's been sitting around and not been registered.

Gary C (: 18:10

Yeah. Perfectly valid point. Right.

Belinda Automotive (: 18:12

So nuanced.

Tracy (: 18:13

you

Gary C (: 18:15

Any closing comments before we move on, Belinda?

Belinda Automotive (: 18:17

Yes, I'm just going to say to the industry, please if we're using words like OCPP and all of this like technical information, can we at least break it down for everybody so it's accessible? Thank you.

Gary C (: 18:29

Wonderful. Thank you, Belinda. Interesting discussion

there. Tracy, over to you.

Tracy (: 18:34

Thank

you. So I want to look at who's buying the cars, when they're going to buy their next car, will it even be a new car and what are the positive messages we need to get out there? So, know, is the age of myth busting dead? Do we just need to get some proper valid information out? And actually it flows really well from what Belinda was saying earlier. So if I'm going to go out and buy a new car,

do I go out and or choose a new car? You there's a whole load of people choosing a new car. I might be getting one as a company car where I've got a monthly allowance so I can just look at what I like best. I might be looking at financing my own car or I might be looking at a secondhand car. And it was quite interesting in terms of the stats because although, you know, sort of 40 odd percent of cars sold last year were either

electric or hybrids, it's still only about 4 % of the overall car park in the UK. So although there are some electric vehicles coming through into the secondhand market, it's by no means mainstream. I think the stats were something, it's pushing 10 years is the average age of a car in the UK. So

Belinda Automotive (: 19:57

Yeah.

Tracy (: 19:57

they're still a lot older than that. And

second hand cars I think it said people typically were keeping them about four to six years but with cost of living crisis they're pushing that further back so you know looking at who's buying the car whether it is a fleet operator whether it is a leasing company whether it is somebody buying it personally as I said 90 % of new cars are financed but I think it's about two thirds to 80 % sorry three quarters to 80 % of second hand cars are bought outright now that

That may be changing over time as people get used to that monthly repayment model as we were discussing earlier. But I just think it's a really interesting sort of conundrum about who are we needing to talk to and when do we need to talk to them. There was a recent EON survey that said 50 % of new drivers wanted an EV. A quarter of them thought that ICE vehicles were

know, completely and utterly outmoded. So there's an argument that the newer drivers are more likely to be training in an EV. And we've got the AA running a campaign about looking at how driving tests are carried out. So.

Back in the day when I learnt to drive, most people learnt to drive in a manual. And if you learnt to drive in an automatic, there was a bit of snarky assumption that you couldn't change gears and that's why you were doing

Belinda Automotive (: 21:30

Mm.

Tracy (: 21:30

it. Whereas now, those vehicles are just far more common. So, you know, for that group, possibly a bit less of a worry, they were saying that...

think it was about pushing 30 % of young people felt they'd had an influence on the decision of their parents in terms of them switching to an EV. So, you know, that little market's nicely sorted. You go into other markets and it's very much a case of, you know, it's not, it's not, can I afford an EV? It's more, can I afford a car? And then what kind of car do I want? So,

EVs aren't quirky anymore. They're so commonplace on the roads and as you drive around, it's a bit like looking at every other car, think, that looks quite nice. I wonder what it is.

I think we're moving to the place where people are choosing a car because they want that car rather than necessarily thinking about it being an electric or a petrol or a diesel car. Your new Renault 5 being a classic example, it's so cute, I want one. You know, not even giving a thought as to how you're going to fuel it.

Gary C (: 22:46

Hmm. Melinda.

Belinda Automotive (: 22:48

I

I think when you've got cars as well that start to meet a need. So I've always said that for the hot I think a few years ago before we got sort of like the Renault 5 come through and the Alpine A290, the hot hatch was kind of a market that was not tapped into really for electric vehicles. So for somebody like me who is an absolute hot hatch lover, you know, and that there would be people within that that

like petrolhead world that would want that form of shape but would be happy to have it as an electric. I think the more that we start to tackle what people actually want

Tracy (: 23:25

you

Belinda Automotive (: 23:27

and the options that are available to them means that there's more, you know, more choice for those people. But

I remember when I was handling some data when I was in the UV charging space and we were looking at the purchases, who was purchasing electric vehicles. The data sort of predominantly said it was 45 to 65 plus men. And then we had a pocket of 18 to 25-year-old women who were looking at.

what an EV could be like. And it was interesting because I think we were drawing these assumptions about why a man 45 plus would want an EV versus why a woman 18 plus would want an EV, but it might just simply be because cars now exist that they idolise and that they would see themselves sitting behind and that they're attainable.

Tracy (: 24:21

And yeah, and it's not just the styling either now, is it? It's all about affordability, because as a potential...

second family car, because I know quite a few people who started with an EV as a second family car, those little cars are just so affordable. They're sub 20k for a brand new car, which just opens up a completely different market. And even if it is your male demographic that you've described choosing the EV,

it's going to be a whole household decision. They're not all single men are they? know so it could be that they've got to consider traipsing around with a number of children, golf clubs which was the old one, of get it in the boo, dogs, windsurfing kit, you know whatever their lifestyle is they're choosing a car on that kind of a basis that ticks all those boxes as well.

Gary C (: 25:19

Tracy, picking up on your thing about learning to drive, a little stat that I found out from last week's episode is that in 2015, one in thirteen new drivers passed in a in an automatic. So an automatic only license. Last year that was one in three. So

Tracy (: 25:40

Wow.

Gary C (: 25:41

yeah. So that's the kind of of movement that's happening with the young people now. So

That demographic of the people who can now go in and drive an electric vehicle comfortably because they passed the test in the appropriate the appropriate mode is quite fascinating.

Tracy (: 26:01

That's a really rapid turnaround, isn't it?

Gary C (: 26:05

Mm. Yeah.

Tracy (: 26:06

was just thinking, know, when my kids were learning to drive and I was going around with them and holding onto the steering wheel and trying not to squeal a lot, they had little run about cars and, you know, as a parent, you invariably get into your child's car if they're learning to drive, if they've just passed the test, whatever. And so...

not something I've thought about until, you know, sort of discussing the new driver aspect of it. That's almost going to be introducing those parents to EVs without them really noticing in some cases,

Belinda Automotive (: 26:46

Mmm.

Tracy (: 26:46

isn't it?

Belinda Automotive (: 26:47

Yeah. I so my parents have thought about going electric, but my mum is actually scared of going electric. And the reason is is because she's never driven an automatic before. So within her 30 or years of driving, to her, moving away from manual to automatic is actually quite frightening. And I do wonder if there is

Maybe something within that, if there's a confidence piece or if there's a support piece of how actually we can demonstrate that it would have been once upon a time or if you just learn on automatic, well you can only ever drive an automatic. But it's not like that now. It's if you learn to drive automatic, you learn to drive automatic. It's there's a whole world of options

Tracy (: 27:38

you

Belinda Automotive (: 27:39

out, and it might just be a a reframe on that too.

Tracy (: 27:43

Yes, that's one of the things I found quite interesting in terms of a technology resistance. Probably a bad phrase, but.

People have gradually, in the main, notwithstanding your mum yet, moved from only having experience of manuals to maybe going on holiday and hiring an automatic, because that's what they

Belinda Automotive (: 28:07

Yeah.

Tracy (: 28:07

pick up at the airport. But then increasingly, vehicles are becoming automatic. So you just have to do that. If you want a manual car, your options are restricted when you want to change a vehicle.

Belinda Automotive (: 28:19

Yeah.

Tracy (: 28:22

I just see it as the next level of, well you got used to not changing gear and just having two pedals, it's just a natural progression from that. But I suppose what I'm not doing there, Belinda, is being cognizant of the fact that there are some people who haven't yet made

Belinda Automotive (: 28:41

Yeah.

Tracy (: 28:42

that switch or are

Gary C (: 28:43

Mm-hmm.

Tracy (: 28:44

not comfortable making that switch.

Belinda Automotive (: 28:46

Mm.

I mean i if

you think about history, I know because Gary brought up the miles per hour on my my my bit, but if you think about in history when we actually started with electric vehicles, moving then into the petrol and diesel space. And for people it was just getting used to different ways, cause starting a car has not always been putting the key in or now just tapping a button using your phone. It used to be a hand crank on the front to get the engine

Tracy (: 29:12

Thank

Belinda Automotive (: 29:13

going. Or, you know, I th so it's a whole evolution of things.

So this is just a natural progression, isn't it? It's into

Tracy (: 29:19

Yeah.

I remember a few years ago.

being in our staff car park and one of the guys, I can't remember, he was in a meeting and we had to move his car and he said, there you are, just shift it. And it was the first time I'd had something with a key fob and I couldn't work out what the heck I was doing with this car. But this is it, you spend two minutes going, which buttons do I press? How do I Do I put my foot here or there first or what do I have to do? Has it got a break anywhere? I don't know. You're so sick, don't you? It doesn't take you long.

Belinda Automotive (: 29:53

You work out.

Tracy (: 29:54

but you know you might feel a bit of a wally for about two minutes and then you just get used to it. You get used to

Belinda Automotive (: 30:00

Yeah.

Tracy (: 30:01

anything new whether you get a new phone or a new car or a new cooker it doesn't really matter you just have to get used to it unless it's exactly the same as the one you had before.

Belinda Automotive (: 30:11

Yeah. Yeah.

Gary C (: 30:12

Now,

I'm old enough to remember when cars had chokes. So you had to set the choke before you could set it go

Belinda Automotive (: 30:16

Yeah.

Tracy (: 30:17

Me too.

Gary C (: 30:18

it, otherwise it would never start. So that's a whole different kettle of fish. coming back to something again, Trace, that you mentioned earlier, we've got, I think, forget what the exact figure is, 33 million fossil fuel vehicles on the road, about two million electric vehicles. If every single new car that was sold was electric, it would still take 10.

15, 20 years to completely replace all the fossil fuel vehicles that are out there with the new ones as they come onto the secondhand market and it it percolates its way

Tracy (: 30:51

Mm.

Gary C (: 30:51

down. So we're still going to be in this situation where, regardless of how many people want electric and how many electric vehicles are out there, there are still gonna be a large number of people who are gonna be quite happy to go around. I've got my second, third, fourth hand fossil fuel vehicle.

diesel Subaru or whatever it is, I'm quite happy to sit here and and and go in and refuel in four minutes and do seven hundred miles and all that sort of stuff, which is absolutely fine, but I think there's gotta be a point, a tipping point, where that's gonna

Tracy (: 31:26

there.

Gary C (: 31:26

be the exception rather than the rule.

Tracy (: 31:28

And that's just the natural progression isn't it?

people I know who say, I'll never have an electric vehicle. And I go,

Gary C (: 31:36

Mm-hmm.

Tracy (: 31:37

that's cool, you're in your 60s, you are not going to live long enough to have to have one. It's not a problem, crack on. And I'm not being mean at that point, it's just a fact of life. They will live long enough to only drive a petrol or diesel car if that's what they want to do. Now, over time, that total cost of ownership profile is gonna change because as those fossil fuels become less and less commonly used,

the prices will go up and therefore that's going to end up being another motivator for people to make that switch.

or it'll be

Gary C (: 32:12

Hundred percent.

Tracy (: 32:13

like going from unleaded petrol to, you know, going to unleaded petrol, sorry, from leaded petrol, you got to the point where you just couldn't buy leaded petrol. You know, you'd have to go searching high and low for it. And over time, those things happen, but they happen quite naturally and quite subtly and nobody

Belinda Automotive (: 32:35

Mm.

Tracy (: 32:35

really panicked about it.

Gary C (: 32:37

Mm. Absolutely. Any final thoughts?

Tracy (: 32:40

I just think, I just think selling...

the benefits and you know the fun easy aspect of owning an electric car and the financial benefits are it just just makes common sense but doing it going back to what Belinda was saying in a way that people understand and it relates to them instead of bamboozling them with lots of stats that really don't make anything is is the way forward.

Gary C (: 33:14

Yeah, totally agree. Lovely, lovely. Now, my turn. We've talked a little bit about cars, we've talked a little bit about the EV sphere, and we haven't touched remarkably on charging. So I've long maintained, and you can go back and listen to the archives, that the secret source to public EV charging is destination charging. And that's AC charges in either hotels or public car parks or workspaces, etc. Now at the moment

Yes, they form the majority of the actual installed charger base in the UK by physical numbers, but not necessarily by utilization. I think there

Belinda Automotive (: 33:54

Mm.

Tracy (: 33:54

Thank

Gary C (: 33:55

should be more. Every time I go somewhere, I look to see if there's a charger there that I can use. If I'm parking my car for more than two hours at any given location, there should be the option to hook onto an AC charger there. With more AC chargers, the need for the huge number of those big expensive DC chargers and hubs.

reduces. Now the use case for the DC charger is for someone who needs a quick charge because they need to be somewhere, well, quick. For me, that's if I'm traveling somewhere over a a long distance, like I did London to Geneva a couple of years ago, London to Amsterdam, year after that, etc. So the fact I can stop en route and charge, absolutely fine. But I believe the majority of rapid charging that I've done has been because I'm

Coming back from somewhere that didn't have a slow charger where I parked. Typical example would be a

Tracy (: 34:48

Thank

Gary C (: 34:49

recent trip I did to Cheltenham for the Everything Electric West event. I got there without an issue, and I could have gone all the way back without a stop if the hotel car park I used had installed a couple of AC chargers allowing me to top up overnight, but it didn't. So I had to do a quick stop at a Tesla supercharger before heading back. Now, the public rapid and ultra-rapid chargers.

Very nice and sexy, and the ability to stop at a hub en route is great. And I'm not saying we shouldn't be able to do that. There's certainly a business case for that. But if we had more AC charging in more places, the number of high speed charges that we would need, and hence the cost to install and implement them and the capital outlay that CPOs would have to do or have to pay out would be lower, and that would lead to lower charging tariffs overall.

So where are you at when it comes to AC destination charges versus DC rapid charges? And I'll start with Tracy on this one.

Tracy (: 35:51

Okay well obviously working for government we grant fund local authorities and by default they have gone with destination charging first. Practical reasons for that I think in the main are the fact that they own the land and they can get the planning permission and therefore they're able to get those delivered within that very tight funding cycle of 12-month grant funding.

So, you know, they're doing that and then they are looking beyond those two on street charging, which...

is it's not the ultra rapid stuff you know we've got a limited budget we've got to leverage it with the private sector and that's what they're doing. Now when you get beyond the local authorities because that's obviously my little world, you have got some charge point operators who are linking up with pub chains for instance who are doing destination charging in those kind of locations because they know that people are going to dwell there or garden centers.

or

golf clubs or wherever it is. When you're getting down to...

an individual B &B, for instance, or some user in an Airbnb, very much a personal decision as to whether they do that. And anecdotally, by being on lots of different Facebook groups, so clearly it's true, the experience that people have when they go to those kinds of places really varies. So some, you know, some people will just let you charge, some people will stay absolutely no charging and you can't put a granny charger out of the window. And then others will say,

I booked this place because it said EV charging and they wanted to charge me a pound a kilowatt hour. So there's a real mixed experience I think where that's concerned. And then the interesting one, not going down to really, really, really slow charging, but know Kevin Booker's got different speeds of charges up at Craggin Horse in Brecon Beacons and he's

said that the more popular ones are the faster, more expensive ones, which seems a bit odd to me because it's a of a weird one because it is a destination charger in that you can go and walk from there. So you would expect people to be using the of slower, cheaper charges. And I think this might be one that you've been to anyway, Belindra, I'm not sure on your many travels, but it's also an on-route charger

is one of the ones that Transport for Wales installed in order to fill the gaps on the strategic road network. So actually that's probably a really poor example because it's actually a bit of both. So I'll think of one last week. I stopped in Hutton Hole in North Yorkshire and there was a bank of six zest charges there.

and the car that was there charging like really super early in the morning was a couple that come over from Belgium and they were obviously going off walking. I think we parked for about four hours and came back and their car was still there charging happily and there was another one charging next to it and that was quite interesting and I'm just going to introduce another little nuance here because there's a lot of

press coverage from time to time about people having to pay for parking when they're charging at destinations.

Because this couple had come over from Belgium, I did point out that there was also a notice on the charger that said, know, North Yorkshire Moors Council or North Yorkshire County Council, whatever it was, needed you to pay for charging as well. And they went, yeah, okay, we know. And I was like, okay, cool. But you know, that's another instance where if you're going walking and you're going parking anyway, why shouldn't you pay for it? Because you'd pay for it if you weren't charging your car. I think then there are other...

other examples that have sort of been blown up in the press where somebody's gone to a supermarket car park.

outside hours because there's nobody there to charge the car because it's close to where they live and then they've incurred massive fines from the car park operator because you're only allowed to park there for 10 minutes outside normal working hours or you're not allowed to park there outside working hours so there's that other slight nuance around destination charging and whether that's attached to a parking fee or not depending on where it is.

Belinda Automotive (: 40:52

Think there's a couple of things as well. So a few years ago, the a lot of the big EV charging manufacturers pulled away from destination charging because it wasn't exactly the space where they could make the most money, and obviously companies want to stay afloat, so they were targeting things like more DC charging or home charging where they could make more impact. And I think we're seeing that.

impact really from where they moved away from it now and actually people are desiring to charge when they're going for a coffee or they're going to stay at a hotel. The other thing though is that when we look at these smaller because I would say they're smaller vendors, you know they're smaller places, they might be your Airbnb, maybe they've got one two properties or they're a small hotel hotel chain possibly. Actually it's again that that piece that I brought up originally around

Why people will make this decision to invest in EV charging and they have to see the benefit for themselves. So if they are somebody that doesn't have the money to spend and doesn't have the time to understand what EV charging could do for their business, even if it is gonna turn them a profit, they're not gonna even think about it. So it needs to be that for us to really get

Into the destination space, we have to spend a bit more time supporting those smaller organizations or groups where we can get some success stories, and we only need one or two really where we can showcase actually this is a success story, and from a business perspective, they were able to turn around this much profit, they were able to manage the public charge point regulations in this way, they were able to navigate all of these like past updates or you know standards and whatever it is.

we show it from a human perspective, we show them how easy it is to to be an owner of a destination charger, but also that there are many little CPOs that absolutely are there to support. So most of the time you might be an Airbnb that wants to host it out or you might be a s a small business chain, but there are people who will actually help help you to operate your charger without you having to even get hands on. So I think

Gary C (: 43:08

Mm.

Belinda Automotive (: 43:08

there's probably an education piece for it, but

There's an appetite for destination charging and I think

Gary C (: 43:15

Yeah.

Belinda Automotive (: 43:15

we probably need to invest in it.

Gary C (: 43:18

I think the the other wrinkle to throw in here harks back to the public charge point regulations 2023. And I think this speaks to what Tracy was was talking about, where she said a lot of people prefer the faster chargers, the high-speed

Belinda Automotive (: 43:32

Mm.

Gary C (: 43:32

chargers rather than the AC destination ones. Because in theory, you can use a credit card or a payment card on the faster chargers, and it's easier than if you're trying to start a seven kilowatt charger, because for most of them, you're going to need an app.

Which means you're gonna need to set up an account, which means you're gonna need to add a

Belinda Automotive (: 43:48

Yes, yes.

Gary C (: 43:50

payment processing or payment method in. And that's that's a barrier to adoption, which

Belinda Automotive (: 43:57

yeah.

Gary C (: 43:58

I d I I don't know what the solution is, 'cause as we say, that's kind of enshrined in law now with the public charge point regulations twenty twenty three. Any s any thoughts, comments

Belinda Automotive (: 44:04

Mm. Mm.

Gary C (: 44:06

or suggestions?

Belinda Automotive (: 44:06

Yeah, I I just I I think we lock ourselves out and I think this is an example where we've not made it the journey as easy as we can for people. So like I know that now there are apps out there that are basically like a wallet for all of your apps, which gets complicated because I know you're gonna need a wallet for that wallet, you know, where you can access all your cards or your specific login information. And I think because there are so many charge point operators out there, you know, whether that's believe or BEV or any of

The others, you can't just keep having to download different accounts, especially if you're going north to south, because you'll see a pocket of more CPOs up north than you see down south. So you'd in theory be having to do this every time. And I think where

we can get away from that where we can utilise some kind of generalized login or whatever it has to be. I mean we've also got people that probably don't have smartphones, right? That are are likely to want to like get involved. Like my grandparents would drive electric, but neither of them have a smartphone. Why like it I I don't understand why we're creating these barriers.

Tracy (: 45:18

There's also another little aspect to this one as well, Gary, in that if your destination is in the middle of nowhere, because it's a very beautiful place that you want to visit,

Belinda Automotive (: 45:32

Yeah.

Tracy (: 45:35

even if there's charging infrastructure there,

you might not get a phone signal and I

Belinda Automotive (: 45:39

Mm.

Tracy (: 45:40

know of several people who've complained that they've pitched up somewhere going great there's a charger and then I think there's someone who went to, someone I knew who went to Temby or somewhere and there were three or four different people in the car and they they got luckily they got different network providers phone network providers and they they got to about the third phone before they

could actually get into this charge point to actually charge up. They were lucky they had a choice of two spare phones most people just have one network provider that they're using.

Gary C (: 46:18

Have another wrinkle. now I'm contractually

Tracy (: 46:19

Thanks

Gary C (: 46:20

obliged to say this because obviously Zapmap are the sponsor of the podcast. I have the Zapmap R FID card, which of course isn't as reliant on a signal as the app. Now I was in Brighton a couple of weeks ago, parked up in a multi-story car park there. It's gonna be away all day. They had a lovely rank of pod point pod chargers, formerly pod point, on every floor. Absolutely superb.

They didn't accept the RFID from Zapmap, but you could pay using Zappay on the app. So it's kind of I'm not quite unsure why one of them all is allowed and the other one isn't. But again, that's an extra barrier that's in place. And I I ended up not actually charging there for various reasons. But if this had been the situation you were talking about there, Tracy, where you've got somebody out in the in the boon, is there with no no signal.

They they might have thought, well I can use the you know, an RFID card only to find out that that particular site was app only, not RF RFID. So are we just making it more complex for ourselves?

Belinda Automotive (: 47:28

Big notes.

Tracy (: 47:28

Definitely.

Gary C (: 47:28

We're all nodding here, going, Yes, yeah.

any final thoughts on this?

Belinda Automotive (: 47:35

think we've gotta come for some form of solution, I think. If we have too much that like if we if we create too many cards, too many apps, too many it's it's gonna just turn people off and it's it it basically almost makes it look like just putting your fuel in your car at the petrol station and tapping is the easier option, doesn't it? So we've got to we've gotta solve that.

Gary C (: 47:57

Mm.

Tracy (: 47:59

Yeah, I read something recently that said the big question now is not can I afford an EV, but it's can I charge it? And that's very much coming back to the, know, the is it accessible? Can I find one? Is it going to be working? Can I actually pay for it?

Gary C (: 48:20

Absolutely. 100%. Well, I think those have been some great conversations. So thank you very much, ladies. if the listeners and the viewers agree or disagree or have a completely different point of view on anything we've talked about, then just you know what to do, let us know in the comments.

Gary Comerford Zapmap Outro (: 48:37

The EV Musings Podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the go-to app for EV drivers to find and pay for public charging with confidence. Zapmap is free to download and use, with thousands of public charge points to choose from, live pricing and availability information, and a range of filters to find the right charge for you. Plus, choose subscription models for enhanced features such as using Zapmap in car, on CarPlay, or Android Auto, and discounted charging across thousands of charge points.

Gary C (: 49:05

So I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show. And it was put together this week with the help of Belinda Guy and Tracy Kearns. Many thanks for your time, ladies.

Tracy (: 49:14

Thank you.

Gary Comerford Boilerplate (: 49:15

If you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms, or other general messages to pass on to me, I can be reached at info at evmusings.com. On the socials, I'm on BlueSky at evmusings.bsky.social. I'm also on Instagram at EV Musings where I post short videos and podcast extracts regularly. Why not follow me there? Many thanks to everyone who supports me through Patreon, on a monthly basis, and through coffee.com on an ad hoc one. Regular listeners will know about my two ebooks.

So you've gone electric and so you've gone renewable. They're 99p each or equivalent, and you can get them on Amazon. Check out the links in the show notes for more information, as well as the link to my regular EV Musings newsletter and associated articles. Now my stats show that a lot of people watch this on YouTube, but they're not subscribers. So if you're one of those, why not hit that button and the notification bell so you don't miss out? Thank you very much.

Gary C (: 50:11

If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you. Why not let me know you've got to this point by messaging me using Zv.bSkyDollSocial with the words guys and dolls. Hashtag if you know you know, nothing else. And thanks as always to my co-finder Simon. You know I should probably get him on as a round table guest at some point, right? We'll see how that works. Thanks for listening, everybody. Bye-bye.