220 - The Round Table XI Episode

Gary C:

Hi, I'm Gary and this search so 220 of EV Musings a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles, and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. On the show today we'll be holding our regular end of season roundtable episode

this season in the podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the free to download app and helps EV driver search plan and pay for their charging.

Before we start, I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has listened to an episode, commented responded on social media or stopped to say hi in person at an event this season. Considering I started the podcast about five years ago to answer a few questions I had about EVs it's taken on a bit of a life of its own, which is nice.

Our main topic of discussion today is not actually a main topic.

So this is the roundtable episode. And as usual on these episodes, I'll invite a number of different people on. Each one presents a topic of discussion which they introduce and open up to the panel. When we've set the world to rights with that topic we'll move on to the other topics. This roundtable will hopefully have discussions that are along a specific theme and the theme of that is 'the issues with electric vehicles and fill in the blank'. It'll all become clear, don't worry. So let me start by introducing today's panel. My first guest is Steph Weller. Steph is a disabled EV driver who is confined to a wheelchair and has only been driving electric since the beginning of this year. Welcome Steph, what will you be discussing late?.

Steph W:

So I will be discussing the issue of EVs when you are a disabled driver.

Gary C:

Fantastic. And secondly, we have Michelle Liddell. Now Michelle is a social media expert working in the EV sector, alongside former podcast guest Liz Allen. She's exposed to a lot of the work that Liz and her team do on EVs and has recently ventured into the world of EV ownership herself. Welcome Michelle, what's your topic of discussion?

Michele R:

Hi, Gary. I will be talking about the issues with buying an EV and the dealer experience.

Gary C:

on and talked about his epic: 3000

Ron G:

Thank you, Gary. I'm going to talk about issues of living with EVs when you haven't got home charging.

Gary C:

Fantastic. So we've met the guests, and we know what the topics are. So let's get right into it. Can I hand over to Steph please?

Steph W:

Thank you so much, Gary. Hello, everyone. And I'd like to introduce the topic of issues with EVs when you are disabled driver. So for a bit of background, I'm a full time wheelchair user. I have been since I was 18. I took on my ownership of my first electric vehicle a Citroen EC 4x in February this year, and it has been eye opening to say the least, we have infrastructure that just in most cases isn't accessible. In fact, one of the only ways I was able to survive my EV journey so far has been because my workplaces have accessible EV chargers, and I'm talking proper accessible disabled bays with all the hatch markings and the width and requirements with charges I can reach in this, that, and the other. Meanwhile, we have giants out there who are doing all these super hubs and a few of them have none of these things. It makes it a bit tricky.

Gary C:

Now, Ron, I know you might have some views on this because you do work with Chargesafe, who are very active in this field. Do you want to sort of jump in at this point?

Ron G:

guidelines through the BSI PAS: 1899

But then it's a bit of a numbers game because the rate the installations are going in, you would expect that there will be some that do have enough space in the land to be able to put properly marked out out phase four good accessibility all around the vehicle, you would expect that people would have worked out how to cite a charger so that people can reach it. And you would have thought that people would have been taking care about the hardware they're putting in that it does meet the requirements. But not happening universally at the moment.

Gary C:

Steph, personally, I'm not bothered if you name names, but which are the ChargePoint operator networks that tend to be the worst offenders from from an accessibility point of view.

Steph W:

We just say the worst offender is Ionity, and Instavolt. And I have two super hubs going in from both of them that are currently being they're in the process of going live and not one bay is accessible to me.

Gary C:

Which areas of the country are you in?

Steph W:

So I am.. this I'm Hampshire/ Surrey, border.

Gary C:

Me too. And I know exactly the IIonity hub that you're talking about, actually, yeah.

Speaker 1

The one

Steph W:

at could end up going back to: 2030

Speaker 1

I

Gary C:

I mean, obviously, I've I'm aware of this. I've had conversations with various people about this. And one of the things that I've heard that people such as yourself who are wheelchair bound, have come- have pushed forward as a sort of a pushback against this is, well there is the Equalities Act and the Equalities act is law. And this is.. if the CPOs are putting in the infrastructure that doesn't allow you access they're breaking the equalities act. Does that sound familiar? Am I talking...

sounds

Steph W:

That sounds very familiar. It's the reason petrol stations have something called fuel serve, and Grids erve actually use fuel serve as well at their hubs?

Gary C:

And how is that for you as a wheelchair user? I mean, obviously, it would be more ideal if you could sort it out yourself. But do things like that? I mean, they obviously help but are they a little bit more of an inconvenience than they would, I would imagine them to be?

Steph W:

Yeah, so I'm, I'm someone who's fiercely independent, would be called stubborn as a full time wheelchair user. And I said, you know, I became a full time wheelchair user at 18. So I have always valued how much independence I've managed to gain back and how much I can keep going. And I prefer to do it myself. And I know I can do it myself when the chargers are in the right place and I've got the space to do it. Grid serve at Gatwick radiant, they've got two disabled bays even when really wide and even if they're in use, their normal bays are actually wide enough that I can get around them and all their charges comply to PAS as far as I'm, as far as I've been able to tell. Another charging operator osprey, they're new or charges, they are complying to PAS for that. So they've got their Super Hub in Banbury that was really good for me. So it's doable. It's I think it's one of these things of

accessibility being an afterthought. And also charging operators just not thinking things through, which is really sad to see.

Gary C:

Absolutely, absolutely. Now, when it comes to actually using, you know, we'll pick one of our favorites there, the Ionity ones, my understanding, because obviously I'm able bodied, I look at this from a completely different point of view, which is why having somebody like yourself on to give us the alternative view is so valuable. But if you were to go to somewhere like the new Ionity hub down at the Miller and Carter and you were the only person there you would obviously have the space to be able to park it wherever you wanted. There wouldn't be any access issues from the point of view of entering and exiting the the vehicle. What are the the additional aspects of the layout that would cause you an issue, even if you did have the space?

Steph W:

So I think that just the situation of how they've designed them, the charges aren't very easy to get around. And you say if you're the only person there, but what if someone then turns up and parked next you? You're stuck on that charger for however long, and I'm sure we've all been there and done it. I will fully admit I have done it myself many times at the local bp Pulse station, where you've gone to see how much someone's car was charged. And if they're sitting on 85%, you're like, are you planning to charge to 100, which case you're going to be advising minutes and you're trying not to scream at them? Or are you planning to move your car? And I don't want to be one of those people that is charger a hogging at 82/83. You know, above that a tent where it starts to slow down to protect the battery. Because someone's decided to block me on, you know, the side of the car that I can get in on?

Gary C:

Yeah. You, you/re preaching to the choir or pushing against an open door there. Absolutely. Ron, did you want to come in there at some point?

Yes.

Ron G:

Yes. Although I'm also an able bodied person at church safe. We do talk with people like Steph have quite a regular basis. We were out with two chaps around the Bristol area looking at charge points just a few weeks back. And we asked about the accessibility options at the MFG charging stations. Now, virtually every MFG. Station, I go to uses Alpitronic units, where the screen is on the side and up a curb. So it's very, very difficult to use. We actually videoed one person who would normally where- would you normally use a wheelchair, but was using a pair of crutches. And it was almost comical, the way he showed us how he would have to operate. But we asked about the availability of assistance, which is a predominant feature of the MFG offering, we were told quite clearly that you would turn up after hours, the only person that can help you is the person that's the cashier, but they're not allowed out from where they are sat. And for such a number of reasons. These people would not reky - even though there are signs up. And I wondered if that's the sort of problem that Steph comes across as well?

Speaker 2

Definitely.

Steph W:

Definitely. And actually, you know, especially with things like the fuel serve and the assistance, you know, it's not just an easy thing. It's a year people who drive ICE, ICE vehicles as well. They it's a similar issue. I'll give you a laugh before by I went to I went electric. It's the first and last time I would ever use fuel service for an ice car. And they put the wrong fuel in my car. I mean, literally go get that and [inaudible]

I like to tell people, I will say it how it is. I mean, if you don't like it, that's fine. I will respect that. But I will say it how it is. Even now when I've asked for assistance. You know, during the day, for example, at the local BP Pulse, there's one charger i can get on to and it's absolutely perfect just down the road from from my mother in law's and it's brilliant. I can get onto it. But if there's someone parked in that one, I've got to get on to the other one. Okay, they've got hatches down one side, they've haven't got hatches down the other side. Good luck. And again, guy probably knows which one I'm talking about.

The one is it's the one that the traffic officers like to sit at quite a lot.

There's a funny- funnily enough, the new Surrey police Tesla was there the other day. Oh, I got a little sneaky peek at Tesla and someone in the shop did actually said, does that thing actually do And if it does the range not drop on it in there like Not really. I was like that's because it's not Stellantis

Anyone who's ever driven the slightest group car will know that you go above 60 - bye bye range below 60. Or at 60. You're lucky.

Gary C:

Ron, you had the Mokka I believe for a while.

Ron G:

I had a mock a for about five months, which I did love but I started in summer. And the one thing that I didn't really register the efficiency I was getting too much. But by the time it got to November, the poor thing would only charge at about 33 Instead of about 100. And so it took forever in the winter months to charge this thing up. And that's when public

charging is good at its best. But when you realize that it's the vehicle that dictates how fast you can get a charge, you have to think about how much coffee I was drinking those days.

Gary C:

I want to sort of start to wrap up this this part. But there's, I want to loop back Steph to something you said, Actually, something Ron said earlier on with the MFG, the Alpitronic says he said, have side facing user interfaces rather than at the front, very similar to Fastned. Now, if you've ever been to the Oxford Park Ride, the whole lot there is completely flat. So it's very, very easy to run a wheelchair up to the side of the unit and access that. But I don't know whether that is more convenient than actually having it around on the quote/ unquote, front of the unit near the car, what is your experience with that?

Steph W:

I've never had one that's been signed on.

In my few months of driving, I've not had to

worry because I go to the probably because I go to the charges that I know I can use like Podpoint and things like that. Because Podpoint, again is another really good one. And that I use especially at Tescos. They they're pretty, they're usually pretty good. Where was Yeah, so I haven't I haven't actually ventured out to Oxford. So I may have to do that at some point. Because I spent three years of my life there.

It's a good setup at the Park And Ride. It's, it's it's excellent. Michelle, you've been remarkably quiet on this one. Do you have any any thoughts on this any any input?

Gary C:

Yeah,

Michele R:

Yeah, I remember the first charger I took a picture of and actually put on LinkedIn with rolek, one outside the home bargains that's in the village near me. And I remember that I never really took it into mind, I just was taken a picture because of my social media background, you know, content is key and all the rest of it. I had so many people pointing out things on there that I hadn't even registered, like the parking spaces were so close to each other, that you wouldn't be able to get wheelchair down. And then not only that, they were on a curb and set back and then had bollards around them as well. And I was like, Well, yeah, you've pointed out no one who has any mobility issues would be able to use them. Because you'd have to stretch over this bollard. I mean, I'm pretty able bodied but I do you have arthritis in your shoulder? So even I would have struggled trying to reach over and pull that off and, you know, drag it to the car. So yeah, I think a lot does need to be done to bear this in mind, because there is going to be a station future where it's not even a choice of people having electric vehicles. And everyone needs to be able to use one and everyone needs to be able to use the infrastructure, because not everyone's gonna be able to have a home charger, just more needs to be done.

Gary C:

Ron.

Ron G:

I was just gonna add that Alpitronics are used by quite a few different charge point operators. Sometimes they are put up on curbs, which is really, really annoying when I see those. But the other place that's got them of all places, it's the very center of Slough, it's one of the highlights of Slough is to go to the raw charging shed and those are from memory are on the ground, there is no curb, and you can easily get round the. Plus, it's got cover over it. There are 30- and 150 units, most of which are undercover wonder which isn't. And there's a nice little coffee shop around the corner, that somewhere to say it's it, they can't be done well.

Steph W:

The - One thing to say on that, funnily enough is it's a very very popular charging point in Slough because no one wants to go to the Herschel Street car park and fight the BP pulse units on the top floor.

One day I may be able to

Gary C:

We get into the whole subject of hogging charges. And that is a completely different discussion and one that needs to be had at some point. Definitely. But Stephanie, is there anything else you want to say on this before we wrap up?

Steph W:

No. I think that's all for now for me.

Good. Good. Good. Excellent discussion. Michelle, can I hand over to you?

Michele R:

Yes. Thank you for having me. So I am going to talk about my experience using a dealer to buy an electric vehicle. Someone said that I have done the quickest transition to going EV from test driving on a Friday, Everything Electric show and then my husband to

The same car, out. Not exactly the same, but the same model from a dealer for a test drive on the Wednesday, and then it was on our drive on the Friday,

Ron G:

yay.

Michele R:

It was a very quick transition. I wasn't planning on buying a car that day, but it seems to have been assigned from the gods.

It was just a bargain. And we got quite a good deal on handing in our horrible diesel that we had. So it just all fell - and it was the color I like. So I was even better and happier about that. So I just want to talk a little bit about my experience and see if anyone else has had a similar experience. So the minute we walked into the dealers, I was showing my husband the car and talking to him about, you know, that was a different model. So I think that was the MG trophy that they had in the showroom. And I was saying, well, we want the Xpower, because it's nicer, it's quicker, you'll enjoy it more. Because he's a bit of a he likes, it has been a police officer, he does like something with a bit oomph behind it every now and again, you know, former boy racer, and all that. So I knew that was the car to transfer - I was looking for the perfect vehicle to make him make the switch. And when I took that for a test drive, I was like the Xpower is the one. Don't just drive it. And that'll be it. So the it took ages for someone to come over to us, which was the first thing that I was a bit cheesed off about. And then they did the classic thing, it was an - I have to say the guy was absolutely lovely. He was a really, really nice guy. But he came over and initially spoke to my husband. And then when we went over, he then started talking to my husband. And my husband just sat back. And wenthe said, I'm retired mate, it's nothing to do with me, you need to speak to my wife.

And after that, he then started to communicate with me. But he still kept giving the odd glance to my husband, and we had a discussion. And he drove an electric vehicle, which I did find was a good point, because he actually understood what an electric electric vehicle does. But there were a few points where I asked about driver profiles. And if the car actually had them, and he didn't know what that was, and he had to go ask someone. And then I asked if there was anything for home charging life they had any offers, or people they could recommend within the area to come around to fit our home charger. And TV said that most people go to Screwfix, and get one and then get an electrician to pop it on the wall. And at that point, I said no, no, no, no, no.

And I gave him I gave him because I had in my bag, still a wad of business cards. So I handed him the business cards and said, you know, if you want to push more electric vehicles out, which you're gonna have to do at some point, you want to pass this on to people and get them to look at our EV drivers section, because there's loads of guides on there about charging and all the rest of it. And when he was like, oh, okay, I'll hand those out. And I thought, Yeah, I bet you will.

Say, I pointed him in the right direction there and explained why having an electr- electrician put in your home charger from Screwfix probably isn't the best solution for people. So I think he kind of appreciated it. I said it in a nice polite manner, as always. So that was the first thing where I was just like, Oh, God! And then we went out for the test drive. It was just me and my husband, we took it out and my husband thought it was the best thing ever. So immediately, he was like, Yeah, we're getting it. So we did all the paperwork and everything else. And then when we went to do the handover of the vehicle, I

I asked him about the charging and the cable and everything. And he just said 'Oh, it's in that bag, you know, this is your fast charging, that's your slow charging'. And that was pretty much it. And my husband wasn't even there. And he had never charged an electric vehicle that was his first time in an electric vehicle. And there was no kind of discussion about like, what you should do. And I thought if my husband didn't have me, he'd be, it would be clueless, you know, he wouldn't know what to do. Ridiculous. I don't know if anyone else has had similar experiences.

Steph W:

Don't get me started on dealers?

Gary C:

The whole the whole thing on the wall. What we've got to bear in mind obviously, is that Michelle bought the MG for so mg. Ideally dealership, Geary, predominantly electric vehicles, the range that available vehicles from MG predominantly electric, although there are some, I think they still do a couple of internal combustion engine ones. So you would think that the dealers will be a little bit more clued up on things like the difference between the cables and how charging works and that sort of stuff. So I find that very disappointing, but I don't find it surprising. I think that's indicative of quite a few dealerships around the around the place. Ron, do you have any thoughts?

Ron G:

I had similar sort of experience myself to trying a test drive from a predominantly combustion engines dealer. And I think everybody has, not only was the person I was speaking to not clued up about the product that they were selling, but they didn't have anybody in their management or that particular branch that had any information. This simple line was people have bought these cars from us before in the combustion engine form. We're now when they come in, we now say, Would you like an electric one, and if they want an electric on they have an electric one. They were literally a stone's throw from the Stirling corner, Shell recharge Ultra rapids. And so I said to this chap, "So presumably, you drive over there on your way with with a test drive and show people how it works?" He didn't even know they were there.

Of course, there are more and more dedicated EV brands that are coming to the UK. And we've had Tesla for a while. And their model is very much that you don't necessarily need to talk to anybody, you just literally can go online and buy your car just as you would buy a tablet or a phone or a smartphone. And there's a lot of information out there. I think the the answer is to encourage people to get the information from podcasts like this, from the YouTube channels that I saw. And I never needed to go to a dealer, the only reason I'd go to a dealer was I did have a car on subscription that I needed to take in for its first service. But it's a matter of being informed before you start. And that's just not the way that a dealership you would expect should operate. So my tip to anyone is do your research, find people who do drive these cars, find people that you can rely upon on podcasts like this and on things like YouTube, steer clear of all the naysayers. And you can do a good bit of research yourself and understand what are the questions that you want to ask? Because the one thing that you don't know when you go to buy something completely brand new, like an EV is, well what are the questions that I need to ask? I think Michelle was probably in a good community of people who were able to say, these are the things you need to ask you're going to get the Xpower model, how fast is it going 0 to 60? That's your question because we've gone past all the basics like what we need to do with the car when we get it.

Gary C:

Now, Michelle talks about the handover and how lacking it was, er Steph when you got your Citroen what was the actual handover process when you talk about charging or anything what how did that work for you?

Steph W:

Similar to Michelle I seemed to know more than the actual person and the the actual person at the dealership had en electric himself he had the exact same so he had the exact same model different trim line etc and had just upgraded all of their EC4X trim lines to I ended up purchasing a very nice snazzy E series it was the first one on the dealer had sold its first one they'd ever seen so everyone was surrounding my car whilst it was having the hand controls fitted and I must say they it was you know they went through the controls this, that and the other of where things were and then said to me let you get your type two charger and they said something like you know how you say new I don't have hard home charger at home so you said how are you planning to if you can't use a type two or rapid I was like oh I've already got a granny charger it's fine because lucky enough someone who's got a Citroen at work said to me "By the way don't come with three pin granny charges like like some of the other brands do. You get one type two type two cable and good luck!" I must admit you know it's the big shock for me wasn't the handover so much it was when I went to fully charged the car for the first time on a rapid charger and because of - like Michelle I do quite a lot of social media - one of the big things I wanted to do was showcase that as a full time wheelchair user you can have an electric vehicle as someone without a home charging you can have an electric vehicle you know it is possible rock up to the to the Gridserve at Gatwick because I was down in Crawley for the day. Couldn't get this car to charge. I had tried seven other different charges of various operators, including Shell Recharge who... anyone who's ever experienced Sheell Recharge will know it's your charge to basically get to another charger. It is one of those. You charge to get to another charger/ You don't fully charge your car at Shell Recharge you never do that you charge to get to another charger.

Gary C:

We're going to have to make that then you advertising slogan: Shell Recharge the charger you use to get to one that works

Steph W:

.. and doesn't piss you off in the process. Yeah. Yeah, fine. Not my car would not rapid charge and it was actually because of a faulty CCS port. Headache.

Gary C:

That's still good Now Michelle, you were not you personally. But your your husband had charging issues first time out. You want to talk about that for us?

Michele R:

Yes. Well.I mean, I think his experience of knowing about charging was just me waffling on about work stuff, and him kind of half listening. So the first time he took the car out, he would have been because we've been moving house as well. So we've been here, there and everywhere, mainly to IKEA and stuff. So he's had to charge to try and get home, you know, just enough so that he would be able to get home from where he was without panicking. So he tried, I think it was four different charges. None of them were working. He had already downloaded about three different apps and being a cybersecurity man was not keen on that whole process. You know, he doesn't like giving his details out. He's.. it was a nightmare for him. He was getting very stressed or very angry. He was phoning me asking me what to do because the information wasn't clear. The follow through instructions weren't clear on the apps that he had. He then finally found a charger that would work at the Tesco. So he plugged it in, it started charging. He then went in Tesco, they did a bit of shopping, they had a coffee, they had some lunch, you know - enough time because he only needed a small amount to just be okay to get back without panicking - and someone unplugged him and plugged themself in while he was at Tesco. So his first experience of the public charging infrastructure was an absolute nightmare. And he was ready to take- give the keys to me and me to hand the car back. Luckily, I've managed to get us a home charger since then, which we got through octopus, which was really quickly installed, which was brilliant and has saved a lot of issues. But his first experience as someone with not much knowledge. I mean, if he didn't have me as a wife that day, to talk him through this things, he would have just handed the car back and said "No, thanks very much, I'll take my old one back. Because at least I know I can get diesel or petrol at a petrol station." So I think it needs to, you know, a lot more needs to be done. And people need to realize, you know, charge point operators, that they need to make it easy for everyone. Becasue not everyone. I mean, he's a very intelligent man, he can work apps, he's into it, it's part of his job. But he struggled. So I think that says a lot, really, if he's struggling, then a lot of people are going to struggle.

Gary C:

And I'm kind of torn about this. Because absolutely, you know, the things that you went through, should not have happened. But it all comes back to the dealer education. At some point, the dealer should have taken somebody out and said, This is a rapid charger, this is how it works. You don't need an app, you don't need an RFID card, you can use your standard payment card. Some of them even allow you to use Apple Pay. Tthe requirement to download an app is only a requirement from the ChargePoint operator, because once they've got you on the app, they've got your data, they've got you as a customer, that's not a customer requirement. That's not a legal requirement. So a little bit more handover, a little bit more education at the time you took the vehicle would have definitely sort of saved that, that kind of embarrassment, or issue - should I say. I mean, I've had two electric vehicles, they both turned up on the back of a low loader at my house, the guy who delivered them. He doesn't know about electric cars, he just knows about how to use the winch and get the thing on and off the low loader. So I had no education at all. And that's one of the reasons I started this podcast because I had all these questions and I figured everybody else would have these questions. So I will be doing an episode next season talking specifically about your first charge and we're going to- I'm going to use your husband as a case study or beat up my Michelle,

I might be able to get him on for you. You can have it from the horse's mouth but worthwhile and exclusive.

Any other thoughts and comments from the from the panel?

Ron G:

I was just thinking back to the first time I got an electric car I hadn't even sat in one and it got delivered to my allocated parking space because it was a subscription model car. The good thing about that particular subscription model is they had pre prepared videos explaining everything that the, they encourage you to walk your way through. And they had a really good thriving community of all the sort of people that had just come to EVs and had all those sorts of questions, which we now may be class as daft. I have since been on a particular make Facebook group and their response to a fairly simple but the interesting question from my point of view was "Well, why haven't you read the manual? Don't come on here asking for questions". But mostly, you find that there are good communities that will help get you started on these things. So yes, I got delivered the car by somebody who driven it to me, who we sit here with, was able to say a couple of things, but I knew nothing about it till I sat in it. But it was a pre prepared situation. So I just add that in there.

Gary C:

Any closing words, Michelle?

Michele R:

Not really, I mean, that his experience was absolutely.. had to be.. probably one of the worst I've ever read in a Facebook group. Just proved that, you know, it isn't perfect. I mean, there are ones you know, when it works, it's absolutely brilliant. But he just had such bad luck as someone who just made a transition to drive an electric and his first time using the infrastructure in the public was just put him off. But I think now he's so happy that we've got a home charger. But not everyone is going to be in that situation, are they? So I just think there needs to be some thinking process behind making this a lot easier. And I know that Chargesafe do a brilliant job trying to, you know, work with Charge Point operators. And you know, it's what we're trying to do at Full Circle as well. And so many other places are trying to do it. There just needs to be a little bit more of a thought behind it and maybe like everyone on the same picture, if that makes sense.

Gary C:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And almost as if we'd planned it your comment there about if you live without a home charger, it can be a little bit more difficult brings us very nicely on to.. Ron. Would you like to take over and talk to us about your topic, please?

Ron G:

Yes, thank you, Gary. The first thing that that struck me when I first got to an EV was that I don't understand why these people have this wonderful ability to be able to plug their car in at home. My particular setup is a terraced house, on a relatively modern estate, with allocated parking, but you can't get your car to the front door, because there is, well, we've got a canal out front, there's a service road at the back, but you can't park there. So I... a good long stone's throw away from the property and just can't be done. And people live in terraced houses that just come on to pavements. People live in flats and apartments. And that's the way the modern world has designed itself. If you if you started today, and our only personal transport was going to be electric, I don't think we'd have any of the discussions that we have around home charging, being any sort of deal breaker. And in terms of the deal, I'm gonna put cost on the back burner for a moment, I know we'll end up talking about the price that's involved here. But I grew up in the 60s and 70s, it was a luxury that we had things like our own personal transport, I was about 10 or 12 years old before my father got a very old secondhand car, the first one that we had. So all we knew was going down to the garage and refueling it there. And that's all that most people have known up until the last five to 10 years. So it never struck me when I was switching to an EV that there was anything odd about going out somewhere to get it refueled. And of course, thinking that over the course of a year, I'm going to go and drive here and there. And I'm going to do a bit of shopping locally and whatever else. And if you started today, as I say, you just look at it and you'd go, okay, there are some lovely journey chargers between where I am now and where I'm going. Because I'd like to go to Scotland tomorrow. And I live in Northwest of London. And if I go to the supermarket or the cinema or somewhere where I'm going to go off for a walk or a National Trust or something, I can go there and I can just graze on a little bit of electricity. If that's the way I'd learned how to do it there would never be an issue. But it's surprising to me that you look on lots of social media places, Facebook pages, X pages, Threads etcetera. And people asked the question "Can I get an EV If I can't charge at home?" And the overriding impression that you get is people saying, No, don't do it. There's no point in you getting an EV. If you haven't seeing that so often, it just mystifies me. I never had a petrol or a diesel recharging point, at any of the houses I've lived at. I don't know anybody who does. The fact that I can't put electricity out of my building into my car. No, no change for me. Yes, you are lucky so and so's if you can do that, and yeah, we will get around to the cost. And it could be that you'd be paying2p/mile, but even so I'm not hugely out of pocket. Well possible.

Gary C:

Now, Steph, now, I believe you're in a similar situation. And you're not you don't have parking at home. Is that correct? Sorry, charging at homer.

Steph W:

money on fuel. I drive about: 2000

Gary C:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think Ron, you both brought up excellent points there. I think the point that Ron made of, we've done 100 and odd years of living with vehicles where we couldn't fuel them at our house. So why now that we can fuel about a house? Is it now an issue if you can't fuel them at your house? It? It's kind of bizarre. Although I can see.. it's a time issue. It's a money issue. You know, everybody says "Yeah, but I can go refill it three minutes at the local Sainsbury's or whatever." And the fact is, no, you can't, because you've got to drive there for a start. And then you've got to queue because if it's Sainsbury's or one of the cheaper supermarkets, petrol pumps at the supermarkets, there's going to be a queue. And it's not really going to take you three minutes, it's going to take you five minutes, and then you may have to go into the thing and pay and there might be a queue to pay there. The, the freight companies in the US actually did a survey of how long it takes their lorries to, their long distance trucks from the time they leave the highway to the time they get back on the highway to actually do a charge and it's 18 minutes. So you know, the figures are gonna be a lot lower here in the UK, but it's not a three minute charge. But sorry, a three minute refill. So is it going to be a three minute charge? No. Is it going to be a 10 minute? Not, Not yet. We're getting very, very close. But it then comes back to what you said earlier on stiff about, do you feel it to 8%? Or do you spend the extra half an hour and knock it up to 100%? I'm a grazer. I'll stop for 10 minutes or 15 minutes whenever I can rather than running it right down to zero and then charging it right up to as much as I can. But that's that's just me. But then the other issue is you said is the cost. People like Michelle and myself were on.. I assume you're on one of the cheap tariffs overnight. Michelle, like me and I'm seen pence ha'penny

Steph W:

now I know that I can charge using the cable protect cable protectors and I'm going to annoy you because I'm on Eon next drive so I get five to seven cheap charging

Gary C:

Although if you were on OVO energy, you could get seven pence a kilowatt hour 24/7.

Ron G:

son of driving something like: 1300

Gary C:

It's okay. There were some pleasant diversions there. If any, does anybody else have any final comments on this before we move on? Oh, wonderful. Thank you very much, Ron. My turn now, The question I want to ask is simple. Why aren't there chargers everywhere? Now, charger coverage in the UK isn't universal. Although to be fair, neither is petrol station coverage. Try finding a petrol station in Northwest Scotland, especially one that's open in the evening, or even on a Sunday. But it's fair to say that there are a lot of well served EV charging areas such as London, the southeast, parts of Hampshire, Bristol, Birmingham, Coventry, Nottingham, Manchester. They've got plentiful public charging. But there are also areas that are very poorly served. And we've talked on the show before about the charging wastelands. Mid Wales Lincolnshire, parts of Cambridgeshire, the Lake District, and that big swathe of land on the sixth between Carlisle and the Scottish Borders. Now when I go visit my family in West Yorkshire, there's one charger in the town. And it's a Geniepoint, which means it's probably out of order, although I did check this morning, and it's actually charging at the moment. But if that's out of order, the next closest one is in the next town across. And that's also a Geniepoint. So there we go. But a lot of this is determined by the return on investment that other than the charge point operators money. Now, they do have a large chunk of cash to play with - £6 billion. But it's not a magical monetary and they have to provide a return for the shareholders. So they've got to be very particular about where they spend their cash and actually put their charges. And it makes sense to put them where the demand is. More EVs are sold in London and Birmingham and Manchester than the Lake District, for example. So that's where they're putting the units. But is this this chicken and egg situation? Should we be filling the gaps and encouraging EV uptake rather than trailing EV uptake across the country. And that's a roundabout way of bringing bringing me to my discussion topic. So would the panel rather have more charges, albeit with less adherence to some of the standards we expect such as accessibility and safety, but have these charges in more places such as the Lake District? Or would you rather that the charge point operators focus on fewer sites in more populated places where the design is much better? So where they were all for example, similar to the electric forecourt. And then we'd end up filling out the rest over time. Now, given that we've got someone on here who can't charge at home and relies on public charging, and someone here who wants greater accessibility, I expect we might get some interesting discussions on this. To put it bluntly, should the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and I'd like to start with Steph on this one please.

Steph W:

So I say start with the populated areas first, make them more accessible and then drag them out as it comes on. The the reason for that is if you look at a lot of electric vehicles now and if you know that you're going to be doing a lot of mileage. There's options out there now where you've got the extended range on the car, you know, Nissan, for example, have got extended have got an extended range option on their cars. Citroen have got an extended range option on the EC 4x. A few of the others, BYD, which, you know, anyone that knows me personally, when I was looking at my electric cars, it went BYD or Citroen because they were the two that matched my needs best. Unfortunately, BYD weren't actually on the Motability portal or so although they were saying they won the scheme. You could not order it the local dealer. So we literally went to Citroen because I was not prepared to wait another three months for a new car. And, you know, they've got I think the Atto 3's got a range of 259 miles, and one of my friends has got one and they've actually said they don't really try and make it into 220, 230 out of it. You know, Tesla new looking at 300 miles plus and the thing is the technology is only going to get better as more EVs come onto the market. So I say we really focus on the accessibility and the populated areas, you know, and that might that might stop the charge, the charger hogging situation that we often face as EV drivers. One thing that I will say is probably going to help loads is the fact that Tesla is opening up their Supercharger network, much to the anger of some Tesla owners, because it's you, if someone hasn't got access to home charging, that's a godsend. I mean, you look at the price of Tesla, especially off peak compared to your likes on Instavolt, Shell Recharge, BP pulse, Gridserve, you know, they're all 70p/ 80p, a kilowatt hour, some Tesla's are 30p, in off peak.

Gary C:

Michelle. Now I know you live in, you're up in north of Newcastle, I believe. So you're in one of those areas, which I would call maybe a bit of a charging wasteland. So what are your thoughts on this?

Michele R:

I agree, actually, I would prefer. - and I think this comes down to a lot of things for our history - that you have a product you perfect it, you make sure it works, before you start rolling it out to here, there and everywhere. So I would much prefer by the time it gets up here to start putting a massive infrastructure in Northumberland where I am, I would prefer that, them all be working. And then we'll be accessible. My little village, which is a very big tourist village. that we're in, you know we're right by the coast, and people love to come here and see everything, it's quite historical, there are six charges on Zapmap, and only one of them is working. So it's not the best round here. Then we would have to drive about half an hour that way up North to have a better infrastructure. And we'd have to go probably about 45 minutes down South to get more. But, that's that's one reason that we obviously went for home charger, but I would prefer if they start in putting loads in Northumberland, then have been tested elsewhere and then have the knowledge that the ones that they're going to put in are actually going to deliver, that would be much better. So I yeah, I agree, get the product working and then push it out.

Speaker 3

On a related, unrelated topic, I did a little exercise a couple of years ago, if you go from Morpeth, up to Berwick-on-Tweed on the coast road. There are actually at the time I did this two, three years ago, there were exactly the same number of petrol stations as there were charging locations on that route. Now, there were more petrol pumps than chargers, but they were exactly the same number of actual locations. But as you say, if 60% or 70% of them are working, it doesn't matter how many there are there does that really? Ron, any thoughts?

Ron G:

hem that there's only between: 8000

Gary C:

Ooh, I like that. I like that. Just on a tangent that I'm going to be chatting with the head of Sainsbury's Smartcharge offering for next season. So I will be talking to him about to put forward that suggestion. You know, we want to split the carpark have a physical divide there where you've got all the EVs on one side and all the ICE vehicles on the other side and all the charging over there. Let's see what he says about that.

Ron G:

His company, are starting to make a good, good start on that because they are nice and visible. And I think they are on the way. They usually on one side, the carpark where people are walking past and so the more we can see that, and the signage, I think the better.

Gary C:

Yeah, they've done really well. They've got 50 sites live, and they've only been there once a year, 18 months maximum? So they've done really, really well. Any more thoughts on this? No, no, we're all looking at the clock going oh, good grief, we're an hour. Right, let's, let's wrap this bit up. I think it was an excellent discussion on all the topics. Many thanks to Ron, Steph and Michelle for their inputs, and it is time for a cool EV, or renewable thing to share with the listeners. Has anybody on the panel got anything that is cool, or a cool EV, or renewable thing they'd like to talk about?

Ron G:

es in the world that have got: 2030

Gary C:

I love that that's that's not far off exponential growth. If you think about it, isn't it? Anybody else got anything? Michelle?

Michele R:

Yes. I was watching a fascinating YouTube video this week about the wireless charging in that a company called Hevo we're doing. Liz had had the, I think he was the CEO on the podcast before and I actually took some time to watch demonstration of how that's using. They've got like a mat that you drive on to and it's really clever technology. He does a step by step walkthrough of how it works exactly. And they had someone drive on to it. So you could see how the computers then recognize everything. It was really interesting. So yeah, I just like people to go see what the future holds.

Gary C:

You see, the whole thing about wireless charging is effectively that becomes plug and charge. So you drive over it, it recognizes it, it starts to charge. There's no card to swipe, nothing like that. It's all automatically recognized by the vehicle itself. And it's I think that's the way a lot of this is gonna go. I know there are certain people out in the EV sphere are kind of going "no, it's not efficient enough. You're losing too much energy and it's not fast enough". That was true a couple of years ago, absolutely. But we're now talking, you know, really high efficiencies at 90% and you can get at 100 kilowatt charging on plug and charge on wireless so it's definitely the way forward. Love it! I've got a whole episode on that if you go back through the back catalogue there Steph, do you have anything?

Steph W:

A fascinating things for me is its own kind of started digging into is the amount of people who start their journey to renewables with their electric vehicle and then will suddenly go oh, let's have a look at solar paneling and become self sufficient and heat pumps and everything. So I, sadly, cannot have a heat pump. I am however once I get my roof sorted, looking at solar panels with a battery to be able to battery pack because I run a lot of medical equipment at home and then also the as a backup, as a follow on from that. I have seen recently a video of how to do you know I'm trying to think how some of the rapid chargers have got like these little 90 degree arms that pull the cables across. Yep, I think it'd be really cool if they start offering that for home charging for people like me who do live right where they've got to cross the pavement. And that's a way to charge your costs that you can home charge if you want to. And if you are then trying to be self sufficient on solar electricity and heat pumps, you've then got that option.

Gary C:

And I'm nodding in agreement here, because two weeks ago, I had Ben McDonald on from a company called Modeum. And that's exactly what they're providing.

Steph W:

Yes. that is one of their videos that I saw. Yeah.

Gary C:

It's actually I was chatting with Ben yesterday at a conference. And yeah, you know, a couple of different versions of it one that looks like lampposts that kind of curls over one that's part of it looks like a down pipe, and it folds out and you can use your own home electricity with the cable across the pavement way above head heights, and nobody's going to sort of get clotheslined with it, and excellent solution. So let's hope we can scale it up and roll it out. Fantastic. Here's mine. If you live in Berlin, you've probably heard of Einhorn who are German, a German condom company, known for its irreverent branding and Fairtrade vegan products, but the company has recently spun out a startup to make something completely different solar panels. Now since the majority of Germans live in apartments, they can easily switch to solar power at home but then co founder Waldemar Zeilla, Zilla, Zillow, Zef, E, I. I forget which way it is with Germans. He happened to see a friend return from a camping trip with a portable solar panel and plug it in in his apartment. And he realized that millions of apartment dwellers could add solar panels to their balconies. And that can help offset the need to use power from the grid. Now, the tech itself is designed to harvest as much energy from a balcony as possible, and it actually tilts outwards, rather than actually laying flat against the, the balcony. They're lightweight, they're easy to install without an electrician. Two. 150 watt panels can provide enough power for your fridge for your Wi Fi router and a couple of small appliances while the sun shines. And the savings on electric bills make it possible for the device to pay for itself. In around six years. They cost about 550 euros although Berlin actually offers a 500 Euro subsidy for balcony solar. So it's almost free of charge. We like that. I would like to wrap up now and just say thank you very much for your participation. Steph, Michelle and Ron many thanks to george from Women Drive Electric for putting me in touch with Steph as well. I think that was an excellent discussion. Many thanks to Ron, Steph and Michelle for their inputs. This season we're looking at raising the awareness of carbon literacy with our listeners. And one way we're doing that is with the carbon fact as read by carbon literacy trainer, Anne Snelson

Anne Snelson

We need to think more about the heat we create. If we harness all the waste heat in London, we could heat almost 800,000 homes for free. Some solutions already exist for waste heat from datacenters. But we should be thinking about the tube supermarkets, aircon and heating shops too.

Gary C:

Anne we'll be back again next season with another 20 Carbon facts. And that's the show for today. Hope you enjoyed listening to it. If you want to contact me, I can be emailed at evmusings@gmail.com. I’m also on twitter @musingsev If you want to support the podcast (and newsletter) please consider contributing to becoming an EV Musings Patron. The link is in the show notes. Don’t want to sign up for something on a monthly basis? If you enjoyed this episode why not buy me a coffee? Go to Ko-fi.com/evmusings and you can do just that. Takes Apple Pay, too! I have a couple of ebooks out there if you want something to read on your Kindle. 'So, you've gone electric?' is available on Amazon worldwide for the measly sum of 99p or equivalent and it's a great little introduction to living with an electric car. ‘So you’ve gone renewable’ is also available on Amazon for the same 99p and it covers installing Solar Panels, a storage battery and a heat pump Why not check them both out? Links for everything we've talked about in the podcast today are in the description. If you enjoyed this podcast please subscribe it's available on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave a review, as it helps raise visibility and extend our reach in search engines.. If you've reached his part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you. Why not? Let me know you've gotten to this point by tweeting me @MusingsEV with the words, 'another roundtable' #ifyouknowyouknow, nothing else. Thanks as always to my co founder Simone. You know he's looking at renting out an electric unicycle when he gets to his latest holiday destination. It's a Mediterranean island where cars aren't allowed. So lots of different companies have sprung up renting out two wheel or one wheel vehicles. The only problem is nobody deals in cash. It's all virtual.

Michele R:

He had already downloaded about three different apps and the Being a cybersecurity man was not keen on that whole process.

Gary C:

Thanks for listening. Bye!