280 - The Round Table XIV Episode

Gary Comerford (: 00:00

Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 280 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. And on the show today is the season ending round table episode.

Gary Comerford (: 00:22

Now our main topic of discussion, well, it's a multitude of topics because it's a round table. Now this is our normal end of season show and usually, as I tend to do, I invite a number of different people on to discuss different aspects of the EV environment.

Gary Comerford (: 00:36

I'm very pleased to say that this season we brought together three of the titans of the industry for what promises to be quite an intriguing discussion. The three individuals I'm about to introduce represent the three major groups of people involved in the UK electric vehicle sphere. And they each run industry groups focused on different aspects of the EV experience. So let me start by introducing someone who represents the charging industry.

Gary Comerford (: 00:57

Vicki Reid is the CEO of Charge UK, an industry body that represents Chargepoint operators and ancillary businesses. And she speaks to the government and the public on their behalf. Welcome, Vicki.

Vicky (: 01:08

Hi, Gary.

Gary Comerford (: 01:10

Next, I'd like to introduce Tanya Sinclair. Tanya is the CEO of Electric Vehicles UK. This is an industry to consumer accelerator founded in September 2024 to drive the UK's transition to battery electric vehicles. EVUK Act almost is a go between for the industry and the end user. So welcome Tanya.

Tanya Sinclair (: 01:28

Hello.

Gary Comerford (: 01:30

And finally, I want to introduce Vicky Edmonds. Vicky is the CEO of EVA England, which is a major body representing EV users in the UK. And they lobby government for better EV conditions. And they were fundamental in pushing forward things like the PAS 1899 accessibility regulations for charges, as well as campaigning for these EV mandates. So welcome Vicky. Now, it's not going to be an issue having two Vickies on the panel, is it? We'll see how that goes.

Vicky Edmonds (: 01:50

Hi, Gary.

Vicky (: 01:54

We're quite used to this, Gary. We're very often in the same place. I'm happy we've been here. We've helped.

Vicky Edmonds (: 01:57

Yeah, that's okay.

Gary Comerford (: 01:59

Now, normally in these situations, I ask each panelist to bring a topic of interest to them. They introduce it, we discuss it as a group and move on. given that we've got such esteemed executives on the same call, I wanted to mix things up a little bit. So I've got a number of thoughts, comments and questions that I want to put forward on behalf of the EV driving members of the general public. And I hope that this will spark something of a debate. So first question to everyone.

Help listeners us to understand exactly what is the difference between all your organizations. You're all trade bodies, but none of you are actually active in the areas that you cover. Charge UK don't provide charging, although their members do. EV UK don't buy, make or sell electric vehicles. And EVA England lobbies on behalf of all EVA drivers, regardless of where they're located in the UK. So take me through those boundaries, please. Who wants to start? Can I pick someone? Vicki Edmonds.

Vicky Edmonds (: 02:50

Thanks, Gary.

Yes, so I suppose and perhaps it's helpful to say how we differ from other organisations in this space as well. So we are a members association, so we're funded by drivers and by philanthropic funds, which means we're independent of commercial interests so we can really represent the individual or the person in the transition. And we can rattle the cages of both government and industry to say actually this is what's working for the driver. This is why EVs are attracted to them. This is why they aren't. These are the issues in the system which I'm sure Vicky will come on to talk about this, it's often charging related, but actually there are other issues around the vehicles as well. So we can talk to both government and industry and say, look, you know, there are changes that need to happen. If you want drivers to get into these vehicles, these things need to be true. These things need to happen to make it more attractive for them. And that's our role within this space. And we also play a role in making sure that the framework or the regulatory, the legal framework that sits behind the transition is the right framework to drive the right behaviors across the industry to make sure that the right products are out there, that they're being used in the right way. So that's how kind of the lobbying and campaigning function that we provide as well.

Gary Comerford (: 03:56

So how does that differ Tanya from what Electric Vehicles UK do?

Tanya Sinclair (: 04:01

Well, I'm so pleased you asked this because in the three months I've been in this role, I spent a lot of that time setting out exactly how we're different and why we're important in the ecosystem of organisations that are campaigning for electric vehicles. And the fact that we don't sell electric vehicles is precisely the point because drivers really need to have a space where they can come and find out more about electric vehicles beyond online research, seeing the products in real life without feeling sold to or being sold to. And so that's the role that we really fulfill is to try and tackle any misconceptions, any nervousness, any misinformation that people might have about EVs, but without feeling that they have to then transact at the ends of it. We don't force anybody in this industry to get into an EV, but we want to assist them on the process of finding out more information at such time that they're ready to start driving electric.

Gary Comerford (: 04:57

And Vicky Reid, what's the overlap between the lobbying that Charge UK do and the lobbying that EVA England do?

Vicky (: 05:03

Well, so like EV England, we're a membership organisation, but rather than individuals who drive EVs, we represent the companies that are installing and operating charging infrastructure. So we were founded two and half years ago in April 2023 to represent the EV charging sector, the companies installing, investing in charging infrastructure. We've now got 43 members. Most of those are public charging operators. So installing those 80, think nearly 70,000 charge points we now have publicly available but also some of the other companies in the space. So the EMSP providers, the roaming providers, platforms, manufacturers, et cetera. essentially, Vicky's drivers are my members' customers. They'll be going about their either charging at home or they're charging in public. And Tanya has a sort of separate but equally important role, which is to try and help support more drivers to move over to an because without that influx of people coming into an EV and buying EV my members don't have any future customers and they find it more challenging to invest. So all these little bits need to work together and we speak a lot together. We've got different perspectives to bring, but it's really a joint effort in trying to move us all forward.

Gary Comerford (: 06:08

Now, as organizations, you all carry out regular surveys of EV drivers in the industry and the replies that tend to come back, and I am generalizing, they always tend to be quite similar. EVs are too expensive, the charging infrastructure isn't there, there's worries about battery health and range. Now, why are we still getting the same answers after all these years? Because I think a lot of those things that I've just talked about, if we go back seven or eight years, I think absolutely, 100%, those are problems that we had at that time.

Gary Comerford (: 06:35

I'm not sure the problems... my perception of the problems are different to that. I'm not sure those are the same things that we should be looking at, but those tend to be what is coming back from the surveys. Why are we still getting those same answers? What's the delay? What's stopping us, at least in the end user's view, from actually moving forward? Tanya, do you want to talk about that for a second?

Tanya Sinclair (: 06:56

Yeah, I think my view on why we're getting the same answers is that we're asking the same questions and we are framing our surveys in terms of challenges. So what's stopping you? What's your problem? What's your nervousness? And we also talk a lot about what are the physical kind of barriers to you having an EV? You know, it might be charging, it might be price, it might be the perception of range anxiety, perceived range anxiety.

There is a whole suite of other reasons that people are hesitant to get into an electric vehicle and they're nothing to do with the physical aspects of the vehicle at all. They are emotional. So people might just be nervous. They might just be a bit scared of change. They maybe have never held a charging cable before and don't know what on they would do with it. And they maybe haven't driven an EV before.

And so I think that if we start, and this is the work that we do at EVUK, start to have those conversations about talking about the nervousness and the confidence and starting to reframe it in terms of just giving access to electric vehicles and ensuring that there's ability to break down those barriers, those emotional kind of barriers, that would, I think, really start to see some different results in the questions that we ask of the driving public.

Gary Comerford (: 08:12

Vicky, anything to add from the Shard UK point of view on that?

Vicky (: 08:14

I agree, I think in this transition we're on as a country and as individual drivers quite frankly, there are two journeys going on. There's one that's just the real journey and the second is how you perceive it. I think if you go back, as you say, Gary, kind of several years, even just four or five years ago, the reality situation was quite different. There were a few EVs, charging was on its early days of being rolled out. Now things have changed hugely and I'm sure we'll come on to what more is to be done in terms of charging.

There are an awful lot more charges than people think there are. The vast majority of time they do work and there are plenty of ways to charge affordably. Again, there's room for improvement in all of those things, but we're moving very much in the right direction. But things are moving so quickly that that perception is very often a couple of years behind. People tend to form their views and we all do on different things. Through conversations they might have had with somebody, an experience they might have had a couple of years ago. And that feeling sticks with them for a long time until they're given a reason not to feel like that. And I think we've got this this ongoing challenge which is our role as our members role is to get that infrastructure into the ground, make sure it's working, make sure it's available, all those sorts of things. And then we have to work with the rest of ecosystem to communicate that. And that's almost the more challenging part. So I think it's about those questions are valid questions. People are nervous, they don't know the answers, they're concerned. So as well as getting on with doing this stuff, we've got to communicate it properly as well.

Gary Comerford (: 09:33

Absolutely. I always have to remind myself that 90, 95 % of the UK driving population have never driven an electric vehicle. They have no idea what it's all about. It's, you know, they're being influenced a lot by what they're hearing from people who are also in the same situation. So it's not an accurate sort of perception that they have. So Vicky Edmonds, talk to me a little bit about the recent Steer the Conversation document that you produced, please.

Vicky Edmonds (: 09:58

Good, timely as well, because it is exactly right, Gary. It was one of our annual driver's surveys where we go out to I guess more than just EV drivers as part of our annual survey. So we try to capture the views of hybrid drivers and non-electric drivers. And I think when you say the barriers are the same, they are for the non-EV drivers. So I think whenever we talk non-EV, and think Tanya and Vicky have made valid points, they don't really know this sector. They don't understand it. And so they take their barriers from what they're hearing from people and what they're hearing from the press. And they do come up as upfront cost, range anxiety, not sure the charging sector the charging world is going to work for me, not sure how this is going to fit into my lifestyle. But we do actually get very different results when we talk to EV drivers. And I think, as I say, for our organisation, that's the important thing, because if EV drivers are still finding problems, then we need to sort that out, because we need to make this system work seamlessly, as seamlessly as the current petrol and diesel system works, if we're going to persuade that 95 % of them, rest of the mass market, across to these cars.

So when you talk to EV drivers the charging divide, the cost of public charging comes up as the number one issue now because that's something that all of them are experiencing. It's one of their big frustrations. Also some of the frustrations around the processes at chargepoints. And I think the public charge point regulations have done a lot to make it easier for drivers. And obviously, I know Vicky's members are working really hard at trying to make Chargepoints work as seamlessly as possible, but they all work slightly differently. The payment process can be slightly clunky for people. So we get that a lot from current EV drivers.

And when we talked about cost, it's more of a retrospective, this was actually a really big jump for me to take. So that upfront cost barrier is still there. They still remember it. So I think the same thing's come up, but the priorities and the orders shift and the nuances shift when you talk to EV drivers. And I think it's really important to focus on that as well as on the wider issues around kind of upfront cost range anxiety that we hear from the non-driving EV driving sector.

Gary Comerford (: 11:55

Yeah, absolutely. Now, I've started with a couple of fairly easy questions for you. And I'm kind of going to move into devil's advocate mode here because I'm kind of renowned for doing that. I attend many conferences, listen to many panels, read lots of articles from many different organizations, including yours. And one of the underlying themes that seems to come out of there in a lot of the things that I'm reading and panels that I'm attending, and if I might paraphrase it a little bit is...

Most of what needs to be done, in large proportion of what needs to be done to make this work seamlessly, is the responsibility of the government. Now, given the general reluctance of the government to make the right moves, and we'll come and talk about the budget in a little bit, because I'm sure you're dying to talk about that, how long have we been asking for VAT equalization on home versus public charging? And that still seems to be something they're not even going to consider. So given the general reluctance of the government to do things like that, why do we still think the government will do the right thing at the right time? Vicki Reed, any thoughts?

Vicky (: 12:52

I think I'd like to challenge that assumption, that basis, which is I think this is needs to be an industry driven rollout because the government is not going to pay for all of this and quite frankly, why should it? And the good news here is that actually there is plenty of private investment that wants to come and do this. So what we actually do need for the government is not large sums of money in particular, it's the right framework, the right basis for investment to come in. And then once it's come in for it to be deployed easily and supported like that.

loy infrastructure through to: 2030

Gary Comerford (: 14:21

So Tanya, if I kind of lead on from what Vicky said there, we have the situation a number of years ago where there was a plug-in car grant. I know the first couple of vehicles that I had that were electric benefited from that. And then that was stopped and there was a slight impact on the number of sales of electric vehicles. And then all of a sudden that's kind of come back into it. The figures are slightly different. The eligibility of certain vehicles is different, but...

We've now got this grant that we didn't have, whatever it was, six, eight months ago. Talk to me a little bit about the impact of that and kind of link that back into what I was saying about, is this something that we need the government to do or do we not really need a Plug-in Car Grant to help sales? What are your thoughts on that?

Tanya Sinclair (: 15:06

What we need is an underpinning of consistency. So I think the point that the government is missing with all of the policy levers, it turns on and off at varying points. you know, since the summer we've had, you know, half a dozen between funding for charging, LEVI, the plug- the new electric car grants and electric vehicle, 3p per mile. So there's lots of things happening.

And each one of those sends a different signpost to the consumer, to the driver about whether the government wants them to get into an electric car or not. And all we want them to do is say, yes, we want you to get into an electric car. We want your next car to be electric. And here is all the policy. Every time there is a policy announcement, it should be nudging the driver in that direction. And that is not currently the case. In addition to that, I think it's really important that the government knows it doesn't always have to do more. Doing less is also sometimes quite helpful and staying where you are is also sometimes quite helpful. So I think that there's something to be said for letting this market develop. We are really 15 years old, but I mean, in its current sort of recognisable state, you know, bit over a decade old and this market needs time to develop.

Manufacturers of everything, all products and services need time to develop their products and services and find the right place in the market for them. And for the most part, over that decade period, the government has managed to strike a good balance between not being too interventionist and adjusting the market forces that are going to help this market actually succeed. And you sort of see now that, you know, I don't know, in some sort of I can be drawn on what the rationale is, but you can see there's of slightly, there's steps they're taking that are causing a market effect that could be seen as slightly too interventionist on some of the participants.

Gary Comerford (: 17:03

So we've kind of drifted into the budget, which is a nice topic that I did want to talk about. Before we sort of go into that in detail, I was speaking to an individual who has asked to remain on a non-attributable basis, but he's known to all three of you. And he said, nobody in the EV world should be looking at the 3P a mile thing and going, "t's not bad. It could be worse." because in his view that's not too far from obeying in advance. There should be moves underway to lobby against this and any green or eco supporter who accepts this without a fight isn't doing their job. There is a lack of joined up thinking, the timing is wrong and there are numerous other solutions that should be put in place before this tax is implemented. Fairly strong words, I think you'll agree. Anybody like to comment on that?

Vicky Edmonds (: 17:51

I don't mind going Gary. I had some comments on your previous questions as well actually. If I could just, I mean on the kind of government's role I actually think

Gary Comerford (: 17:56

Go on, go on.

Vicky Edmonds (: 18:01

This transition is moving very quickly now. The ZEV mandate is good, but it's forcing the pace of the transition that might take a bit longer. And it isn't self-sustaining yet. So I actually think, and I think government knows that, and I think that's why it's pump priming and quite aggressively pump priming this transition with a lot of money and a lot of numbers. I think what we need to make sure is that that money and those numbers are targeted where they're most needed. So I think, again, kind of as EVA England, that's what we will be focusing on.

I also think they have a massive role, as I say, in making sure the right regulatory framework sits behind the transition to incentivize the right behaviors as the transition rolls out. And by that, mean, regulation is there to protect the consumer ultimately. So just to make sure that actually when products are being rolled out, they are safe, they are reliable, they are affordable. So I think they still have quite a big role to play given the pace at which this is going. And then you hope that it will ease off as the sector becomes slightly more self-sustaining and works better, I think, for consumers. On the paper, I absolutely get that. And to be honest, before the budget, we were in that same space. We wrote an open letter to the Chancellor saying this is the wrong idea at the wrong time. Like, nobody disagrees that we need to have this conversation. But doing it so suddenly with such a specific proposal right now and only two years time is really going to shake and rattle the market.

However, it is really clear from what Treasury is saying that this is going to happen. And I think as an organisation, if we don't pivot to try to make sure that it happens in the best way possible for drivers, and also to use it as leverage to make sure, as I say, that that money and that regulatory framework is actually targeting the gaps and where it's at. So, know, 1.3 billion top up to the Electric Car Grant. That's great, but...

Is the new car grant the right way to put it? Actually, the used car market, we need a stronger, thriving used car market to support the whole transition. So should we be focusing on that with that money? So I don't want them to use these new incentives as a blunt instrument anymore. We want to make sure they're targeted in right way. And I think as an organisation, if we didn't try to focus on that as well, we would be wasting our time. Because as I say, I think this is a done deal. Treasury have been really clear. We're not expecting them to U-turn on it. Every conversation we've had with Treasury officials is this is happening. What we need to make sure is it works for drivers, the mechanism works, and that the incentives that surround it that's supporting packages targeted in the right way.

Gary Comerford (: 20:18

Okay, so...

Tanya Sinclair (: 20:18

If it's okay for me to come in and in support of Vicky said with a little bit of evidence about quite how destructive 3p per mile has the potential to be, the market impact of 3p per mile doesn't start in 2028 when the policy starts. It said last week when it was announced. In fact, it's not before she announced it because the nervousness and the lack of comps was sown when she floated various trial balloons to the dispatch box and announced the consultation on the mechanism. Within that consultation on the mechanism, there is zero consideration given to the behavioral impacts. So people getting nervous about and the impacts of the policy on that. And so as a result, it's figures about how much that policy the 3P and MILA is going to raise are inaccurate, because as the OBR has said, and as the energy systems catapult has modelled, there are a far greater reduction in number of people that are going to get into electric vehicles because they're nervous about what this is going to do with them, do for them. In addition to that, there's also a problem with the way that the proposal has been constructed for anyone who doesn't own their own vehicles, so leasing in particular. And those are the people who are going to be leasing because today on a three-year term, who are going to come straight up against this new tax regime in 2028 that has not been designed for them and has not been bottomed out in terms of exactly how it's going to work for them. It's extremely concerning that the lack of thought from the Treasury and not to mention that not only will this tax raise not raise enough to plug the hole it's designed to plug, but it also then will impact our climate change commitments to decarbonise surface transport into the 2050s.

The seeds of that are being sown today and they're not being sown if people are not getting into electric cars. So the ramifications of designing a policy to plug a hole in the tax receipts that has behavioural impacts that cost the effects of which can last decades really can't be understated. like Vicky says, it is absolutely detrimental to the market that they've decided it's a done deal.

Gary Comerford (: 22:31

And I think the other thing that not a lot of people have actually, I mean, people will have thought about it, but I don't think I haven't seen much out in the public domain about this is the Office of Budget Responsibility, OBR, whatever it is, have said that as a result of this, there are going to be fewer electric vehicles sold. Now they plucked a figure of 440,000 out of the air on the day of the budget and then walked that back to 150,000, I think.

Gary Comerford (: 22:58

Now, regardless of which figure you choose that's going to have an impact on the ZEV mandate, which means that there are going to be fewer vehicles sold, but the ZEV mandate is still going to be at that particular percentage. And is this going to give the manufacturers, the OEMs, a little bit more ammunition to push back again on the ZEV mandate? What do we think about that?

Vicky (: 23:19

I mean, very possibly. I if we just think back 12 months to last Christmas, when Christmas Eve, we were all delighted to receive the ZEV Mandate consultation. We were having another of these big sort of signposting discussions and Tanya was right about this. There's lots of detail going on all the time, but there's been at least three of these big moments in the last 12 months about, is this happening? Are we accelerating or are not? We've had the ZEV Mandate consultation. Then the decision, yes, OK, we'll settle that. It's 2030. Then we had some EV car grant in July and then this, and we've been kind of back and forth and back and forth. It's consumers who receive this messaging and by gosh, that three pence per mille cut through like nothing else. I'm sure we all had people who aren't in this EV world come into us saying, what's going on, Vicky? And it's not just consumers, it's investors in charging for charge, others who are looking and following. I think it's the budget just last week is very, very consequential.

And, you know, in some ways, again, we're back to this whole reality versus perception thing, which is actually, there was a lot in the budget, which was there to deliberate to try and counterbalance the impact of the e-VED. And now we've got some things in there on charging that we're very supportive and happy about. But at the end of the day, it comes down to whether the consumers are going to buy and how they're going to respond. And I think, obviously there's some estimations in the OBR. Time will tell what that really means, but I don't think we can rest on our laurels and expect that this will just be accepted. I think we're going to have to work quite hard, whether it's a question of going back to the policy itself and looking at or working with it somehow and trying to communicate to drivers, actually this is still works. This is still for the vast majority of people, it's still cost effective. I'm sure we'll come on to the public charging part of this later on, it's this perception issue which we need to battle very, very heavily.

Gary Comerford (: 24:58

And I think it's, I mean, you brought up an excellent point there, which is, people like me and I think most of the people on the call, no, I'm saying that I don't actually know people like me who can charge at home, 2P a mile on off peak and extra 3P on top of that. I'm still quids in when it comes to looking at that in relation to petrol or diesel, but there's, people that I know who listens the podcast, Abigail Dombey from Brighton, for example, and she'll be jumping up and down and going, yes, but I don't have a home charger. I have to charge on public charging 100 % of the time. In Brighton, she's at the mercy of the CPOs who are there, who are not necessarily providing quote unquote cheaper off peak rates. So the rate she's paying at the moment is already high. And then there is an additional three pence a mile. So, talk to me a little bit about, is there anything that Charge UK can do that can help alleviate that? Or is there any influence that Charge UK, for example, can have with the government that can help to influence that and offset this 3p per mile e-VED?

Vicky (: 26:02

Well, I get up most mornings with that in mind, which is, you we've got three things we continually think about, which is the availability of charge points. And we've talked about how we get more out there and we've got various work going on to try and remove the barriers that, including investment barriers. We've got questions around reliability. Maybe we'll come on to that later on. But the one which has been rising up the kind of list of things that consumers talk about is affordability. So that's why we published a paper back in September. I'm really glad we did now, because it was all about how we collectively deliver affordable charging for all. And I think we're very keen to say for most people that, you know, charging at home is very cost effective. Even if you can't, there are lots of ways to charge affordably. And Gary you've done several episodes on how to do that. But the truth is that the average cost of public charging has risen in recent years. I think it's 38% since 2021. So we wanted to do something to really acknowledge that first of all, we know about this, we care, it matters to us, it matters to us not just because we're nice individuals, but actually if the cost of charging is putting people off from switching, that's a problem for us because it means fewer consumers. So we need to do something about it. So we did a piece of work trying to identify well, why has this happened? And what can we do about it? And I think this is now coming into really sharp focus now. So regardless of what happens with e-VED, and I think there'll be plenty of discussions about whether that's going to go ahead, going to go ahead in its current form.

% since: 2021

Gary Comerford (: 28:46

Before we, is there anything anyone wants to say more about the budget? Because I don't want to move on, but I do have like an extra comment that I want to fit in between the end of the budget and the start of where we, of our next Topical Conversation. So any other final comments about the budget?

Tanya Sinclair (: 29:00

Well, if I could just come

Vicky Edmonds (: 29:01

I have a few but, Tanya, you go first.

Tanya Sinclair (: 29:04

Sorry, no, well, I just wanted to talk about people who can't charge at home because I cannot. So I live in a terrace and park on the street where I can find it. So occasionally it's in my street, it might be in the next street, and I'm relying on the public networks in London. And I think that the pricing, it comes to the price that I pay and the constituent parts of that tax energy and so on. A part of the problem, but there is also a consumer experience piece that is really important to nail if we are going to encourage drivers to get out of the mindset of I can't drive an EV because I can't charge at home. Because you can, but it is difficult. And those problems are, if you can absorb price differential, the significant price differential, on top of that, there are user experience frankly, that would not be acceptable in any other sector. And it's quite surprising that we have persisted as an industry to just accept that that's part of the way that we have to use charging, by which I mean specifically chargers not working, chargers saying they're working and they're not working with no explanation, chargers failing to recognise are, chargers locking a connector in charger.

And, this is stuff that I'm an into some work in this industry, so I've got a degree of understanding, huge degree of sympathy with why these things happen. But we are not going to get skeptical people into electric vehicles until we can do that. And that's just the physical problems. Then you also have pre-authorization, ranging from anything from 30 to 90 pounds for every transaction. You have hidden costs or different costs concurrently on the same charger depending on roaming network you use to access it.

It goes on and on. I won't labour the point, but I would say that this is stuff. It lies with the individual CPOs to work together to standardize the user experience of charging in order that drivers who don't care which CPO they use, there is no brand affinity to a hero. They want the fuel that they are providing. They don't need any innovation or any sort of brand equity in a particular app. They just want their charger to work and the charging CPO's especially in places where there is a non-street need could do better resolving that between them.

Vicky Edmonds (: 31:24

I think Tanya's probably summed up most of the survey results we get from drivers around operation of charge points. But I also just come back to the fact that it's absolutely right, but there are regulations in place and there isn't a great monitoring system for them. And I think we have drivers who want to make formal complaints to the so the public chargepoint regulations are supposed to be monitored by the OPSS, the Office for Product Safety and Standards. Drivers have no idea who OPSS is. They have no idea what the complaint route is. So again, one of our jobs is to try to make sure that that system actually works for drivers, that feedback loop between drivers, government and industry is working and it's not at the moment. think Tanya's kind summarised those things.

I actually just wanted to talk very briefly about the budget, Gary, but not necessarily to dwell on the budget announcements. mean, I think we talked about the new e-VED kind of three pence per mile. We talked about the supporting package that surrounds it how that must be targeted. I also think going back to your point about the person you spoke to behind the scenes who kind of wants us all to do more to trash it. I have to say I have had a lot of conversations with a lot of different drivers since the budget was announced, and I think it is really important to recognise that driver sentiment is not necessarily as against this as people think it is. So there are a lot of EV drivers I speak to who think this is actually the right thing to do as long as it's done in the right way and as long as it's done the right time. So again, it's that time in gestation. There are a lot of non-EV drivers who have, it's now been drawn to their attention in a way it wasn't before, that they are paying more to use the road and they are furious about it.

And so I think if we ignore that and if we just say that this is a terrible scheme, think we will be doing everyone a disservice. I think we need to be very aware that actually a lot of drivers want this to happen. And now it's really about making sure it happens in the right way, because that is part of attracting more drivers into electric, is that they think that there is a fair system out there that if they transfer across, actually, they're probably going to be paying less to use the roads than they would be. You know, if they were using fuel duty and as long as we can sort out that public charging cost issue, which I agree with Vicky and Tanya, is the most pressing issue right now, then actually there is, you know, I think that's the main issue is that we need to sort that out and then we need to make sure that we're reflecting consumer sentiment and making sure that that's reflected back to government in development of this scheme.

Gary Comerford (: 33:38

Yeah, I think the comment that I wanted to make, I think we might have mentioned it earlier on, is there's a lot of things that the government are doing which we agree with, there's a lot of things that the government are doing that we don't necessarily agree with. And I think the phrase that I've heard more than once is there's a lack of joined up thinking in the government. So my challenge to you is what are your organizations going to do to try and influence this joined up thinking to make sure that Yes, we do need to be able to pay our way, but we don't want to do it in a way that is detrimental or too early or will have a knock-on effect on sales of EVs, for example.

Vicky (: 34:15

Let's not kid ourselves, we're not the only sector sitting here thinking that there's no joined up thinking and there'll be other sectors having other discussions right now, incredibly unhappy about the budget which was tough for lots of different reasons and I guess the reality is we have to work within the political system and I think although I think we're all trying hard and I think you know have I think good relationships with different places in government we cannot fix the whole of government from this corner so we have to work out how to use it to advantage. I think one of the key things to think about here is there are different departments at play with different incentives and different things they're trying to achieve. The budget sits with Treasury and the Metrologist's decisions sit with them. So you could probably go through that budget and work out which things have come from which department if you want to. Of course, that doesn't help us here and it doesn't help the driver. It's a problem. I think it's about, and we'll be thinking about this very much as well as Charge UK going into next year, which is how do you, this is not, how do you make this work from a Treasury point of view, wider political point of view? We like to talk about investment in infrastructure. We like to talk about future-proofing our country. We like to talk about make sure there's works of ordinary people and all you drivers. So we're all here in a kind of, ⁓ we spend a lot of time talking to other people in the industry, people who are already driving EV. We need to make sure we don't stay within this bubble, which is fantastic to talk and exchange things like this, but actually we need to make sure these things are relevant, whether from an investment, a business, ⁓ kind of economic growth point of view, and from an individual person point of view, and think about how we're presenting this in the wider context. And I think that's...

Vicky (: 35:37

If we do that, we take that consistent message around to government and try and make sure it appeals to different entities, we have a fighting chance. But I think this is the reality of the work around to the best we can.

Tanya Sinclair (: 35:49

So, EVUK fulfils a slightly different role in the process. And that is that if you look around, the e-VED and the budget is a case in point. The MPs and civil servants and indeed local councillors and council officials are tasked with making high consequential decisions for our industry with, for the most part, little to no experience of electric vehicles or charging, by which I mean that they not only might not be EV drivers, but they might not drive cars at all. And so the role that EV UK is fulfilling is to enable access and experience of those technologies to the people making the decisions. So we won't lobby per se, we will represent what drivers are thinking to those political audiences.

But we'll also say, look, if you want to understand more about this and you want to make informed decisions when it's the future of regulation and legislation in this space, please come and drive an EV. Please come and drive one and we'll drive it to a chargepoint. You can use the chargepoint. You can see the impacts of the work that you're doing when you're sat on the benches of the House of Commons or wherever it might be. what I really pick up in policy decisions is where you can see there's been the hand of someone that's an EV driver and whether or that hasn't.

Gary Comerford (: 37:13

So talk to me a little bit about the consumer experience, Vicky.

Vicky (: 37:18

So think as I mentioned earlier, we tend to think in terms of there are three things we're trying to do for drivers here, making sure the charge point is available, making sure enough across the country in the right place, making sure it's affordable. And I've spoken a little bit about how we're trying to do that. And the third is always consumer experience. And we talk about reliability as I think perhaps the word which always springs to mind. But really it means the entire consumer experience, which is, can I find the charge point? Is it easy to park? Is it available? Is it iced? Can I work out how to pay for it? Does it then work when I've tried it?

You plug it in. think there's a whole, how I had a successful charge is the question we're talking about here. I think even once we've worked out, you know, where are the charge points in the right place and are they affordable, this is the third thing we need to get right. I think we know that very much as an industry and I can assure you everyone gets up every morning working in member companies trying to do that every single day and try and improve. They're also trying to compete with each other, remember, which is, you know, that the market is still young but eventually these will be competing very much for drivers and drivers will vote not necessarily with their feet, but with their cars and they will take them where works best. So I think there's been a lot of progress in that and I was pleased to see yesterday, actually, that Matt was saying that confidence in the public network is improving. But I'm not going to pretend there's not some progress to make. We mentioned the public charge point regulations earlier on. That was a really important, I guess, line in the sand that came in a couple of years ago to say, well, this is here are a number of aspects of consumer experience which are important. Let's try and draw a kind of minimum standard if you like and let's make sure the sector meets those standards and ideally exceeds them, they're still bedding in and we're about to see some of, guess, the reports coming out in the next, you know, period of time see how things are going. I think that's a really important piece of regulation that we're working really hard to take on. But we're also, I mean, you know, there are other issues which aren't in there. So pre-authorisation was mentioned, there are other bits and pieces as well, the whole journey, signage even.

We're trying to do within Charge UK trying to sort some of those issues out before we're looking at them in a policy document as part of regulation because really it does make total sense for us to sort these out ourselves first. So we're doing some work with UK Finance and the banks are trying to sort the pre-authorisation situation out which really is a consequence of a new sector coming in and the very existing system that works at fuel stations etc not quite knowing how to deal with it. So there are some easy, There easy wins, are some quite complex issues to work through, but there are some things that we can take off the table in terms of problems.

Vicky Edmonds (: 39:34

All right.

Vicky (: 39:37

Signage is another one we work very hard. So I think, just to reassure your listeners, which is that the sector cares very much about consumer experience. It matters to them. It matters for their business growth and their competitiveness. I think there's been some improvement, but we're working very hard to push that on further.

Vicky Edmonds (: 39:52

Can I also just jump in there as well? I think as I've probably said lots of times on this call, think the regulations exist to protect the consumer. That's why they're put in place. I think they were a snapshot in time of what the sector was like in 2017 when the AEV Act was drafted and it became law in 2018. And then obviously the regulations themselves take time to bring forward, which is why we fought to get accessibility into that kind of legislation because it was an obvious gap that should have been there back in 2017. I think there are other, perhaps less obvious gaps as well. So I think the work that Vicky's doing to try to look across the sector and say, what else do we need to sort out? I think government needs to be looking at that. That cannot be, this is an evolving sector, it's evolving at pace. We're getting more more driver feedback on how it's working. An act that was drawn up in 2017 when the sector was pretty new, cannot be the end of a discussion on what the framework should be to make sure that, as Tanya said, this is a seamless experience for consumers because it is, you're absolutely right Tanya, why on earth are we all putting up with what is a substandard situation which you don't have a petrol and diesel stations and we need to bring the sector up to that level.

Gary Comerford (: 41:02

Can we talk about something that I hear this come up all the time. The general opinion is that new EVs are more expensive than new internal combustion engine cars. But yes, that may be true. But in reality, very, very, very, very few people buy new EVs. They're all leased or salary sacrifice, motability. So the monthly amount that people end up paying is the same. Plus there are now actually many EVs that are below the average sale price of an internal combustion engine car, know, the Renault 5 that's just come out with the, that's now eligible for the, ⁓ for the grant. You look at the Dacia Spring, you know, some very, very good deals out there. So Tanya, what is the real story on pricing and how's that affecting adoption of EVs?

Tanya Sinclair (: 41:43

I think we've become as we get ever closer to it quite fixated on hope that springs forth from this idea of price parity and that somehow there's going to be a moment where we all wake up and we're like we're at price parity hooray and we all sort of celebrate or something you know it's a first of all moment because of the multiple ways that we end up driving cars so through lease bearing the huge increase in the number of types of, of lease purchase and salary sacrifice on a personal business basis, that's really changing. And not to mention the aggressive marketing plus the grants that are flexing prices according to seasonality demand. there is a huge amount of kind of, there'll be a, think we're starting to enter that moment right now of price parity. So there are a of calls out there that because of a combination of marketing and grants, the EV equivalents are the same price as the ICE equivalents.

So we're there and the ICC said that in order to meet our seven carbon budget obligations that are relating to decarbonising surface transport that 26 to 28 is the year that we should see price parity and I think we're going to hit the earlier ends of that. And what I think actually is we sort of don't factor in is the vehicle's relative affordability to our own cost of living.

Right, so we do not operate separately in the car market from the national economic challenges that we face. And it's not just a fact of whether you've got more money in your pocket due to tax and the cost of energy, the cost of food and all of that stuff. But there's a perception of whether we feel like, we're feeling about our future, let's buy a new car. I don't know many people that are in that position right now. So I think we've got ourselves a bit of grace as a market that we do not operate in complete isolation to the mood of the nation and to the facts of how much money we've got in our pockets as consumers as drivers.

Gary Comerford (: 43:43

Vicki Edmonds, any thoughts? Anything to add?

Vicky Edmonds (: 43:44

Yeah, no, I think that cost of living point is really important. And I think we are just finishing a study with one of our kind partner organisations, Transport and Environment on access to low cost EVs for lower income households. So think that's the kind of, know, there is a point at which people view these cars as affordable to them. And there is a big range in what that point is, depending on a household's individual circumstance. And that is actually what people are looking for. And when we look at some other countries where they've introduced social leasing schemes, when the price is right for a particular price kind of income bracket, then they will get into these vehicles because it makes it is cheaper for them. And as we get into mass market, that is going to be the real reason people jump across is because they're going to find these vehicles are more affordable than running a petrol diesel equivalent. And whether that's the upfront price or the fact that there's messages around the fact it's cheaper to run them if you have a driveway get through, think. And I think we're going to see that as the prices drop. I think from our point of view, I had lots of debates with people about whether the right thing to do is to pump out the new car market or whether we should be doing more in the used car market. And all these different data analytical firms, they all have different view on that. Government has a very particular view, I think, which is that the new car market drives the second-hand market. The consumer genuinely doesn't care about whose data is right and whose analysis is right. The consumer wants the right price points. And what we see in our data from our surveys from drivers is that where 80 to 90 % of drivers buy second-hand less than 25 % of EV drivers by second hand. So there's a big discrepancy there. Now, whether that's because the second hand used EV market is not mature enough or whether it's because it's not affordable enough, I don't know.

But I think to exclude that, to get people into the cars, you need to look at the whole market and make sure you've got to support a base. If the ZEV mandate is to succeed, drivers need to be behind it. And at the moment they are not. They're being forced into certain sections of the market because there's a grant over here that suits them or there's a salary sacrifice scheme here that suits them. They're not necessarily getting into it because they think it's the right thing to do. Now we need the whole market to think actually these cars are better and cheaper for me to run so I'm going to that's why I'm going to get them and unless you focus on the used car market I don't think we're going to get

Gary Comerford (: 45:52

We're coming to the end of our time together and I want to finish as I usually do on any conversation with EVs on the topic of misinformation. Now we recently lost a great EV advocate and fighter of disinformation with the death of Quentin Willson. Tanya, talk to me about some of the work that you're going to do to continue what he started and a little bit about why misinformation or disinformation is such an issue for new EV buyers.

Tanya Sinclair (: 46:16

It's an issue on a number of fronts. It's an issue because it's so pervasive. It's everywhere when you look around, not just your social media, but your trusted media. And it's not blatant. It can be underhand. So for example, telling the story of one person's problem with an electric vehicle, but framed in such a way that it makes it feel like all of them are problematic. And then you also have some kind of quite determined disinformation and really pleased you talked about both because even from within our sector, there are actors that would like to drag the pace of change down to suit their own timelines of whatever products and services they're selling and want to lead the market in. So there's a lot of very complex forces. And on top of that, when I think it was back in 2023, survey found that actually who you trust the most more than online research, is friends and family when you're researching when to buy your next car. It's quite interesting that if your friends and family are non-EV drivers and are reading this online misinformation, they're going to feed you some very negative thoughts about whether you should buy an EV. And those are very, very trusted opinions to you. The social media may not be, but if it's coming through the mouths of your friends and family, it increases the trust in that information. So that sets out the scale of the problem.

In terms of what to do about it, this is not something we're going to fix quickly. But for me, it all starts with breaking down barriers. So getting away from our screens, like the solution to so many of our problems in life, get away from our screens and get out and try and get into a real car and form a judgment based on your own real life experience of sitting in that car, engaging with how it feels to drive. And when you find out that it's surprisingly much more affordable than you thought, as with many of these cars, making a decision based off its own merits. And I wish I had sort of clear answers, but for me, something I've learned in the last three months in this role is that there is no substitute for investing time in having one-on-one conversations, not in our capacity as experts, but in our capacity as people that have done this and can tell you something you didn't know before.

So yeah, no silver bullet, sadly, but really, like you say, I'm pleased you mentioned Quentin, because we really try and carry on in the manner that really he sort of blazed a trail to help us. You know, we'd be wise to remember that, you know, banging the drum needs to carry on even after he's gone.

Gary Comerford (: 48:54

Any of the Vickies have anything to add to that?

Vicky (: 48:56

Any of the Vickies? I mean, I think we're right back where we started, which is already due to emotions and confidence. And this is why the disinformation, the misinformation, the lack of information is frustrating because actually, even if it all makes sense on paper, people tend, especially when they're buying their own personal car, it's a lot to do with how they feel and how confident they are. And that's also, that's to do with, know, not just people buying the cars, but those investing, know, people working in local authorities.

The insurance companies who are saying whether a charge point can be installed in a car park or not, it affects the whole chain through. Tanya was right, there is no silver bullet. These are all complicated. are all individual people making decisions on complex inputs. So I think we need to just keep going with getting the stuff working in reality. And we've covered quite a bit about today in terms of how far we've come further to go and just keep talking in different ways to different people as human beings most of the time. And I think we know I'm pretty comfortable. We'll get there eventually.

Vicky Edmonds (: 49:54

I think one thing I'd add to the discussion around misinformation is that point of sale information at dealerships. A lot of our drivers, when they respond to our surveys, pull that out as a really inadequate experience, that they're not getting the advice that they want when they go to dealership over the car that they want. If they go in and suggest that they want an electric car, they're sometimes diverted towards the petrol and diesel cars, and when they are in discussions over electric driving electric with dealerships then the people in those centres often don't know that much about them. I think that's something we really have to get a grip on and address. I know that the National Federation for Dealers, the Trade Board of Dealers does work with the dealerships that are their members on this. I think there's a role for manufacturers there but somebody has to grip this and say how are we going to improve that service and that standard at that point of sale because that's a real barrier to many people.

Gary Comerford (: 50:48

I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show. I'd like to thank my guests, Vicky Read, Tanya Sinclair and Vicky Edmonds for their time and the great discussions. Thank you to you.

Gary Comerford (: 50:57

If you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms or other general messages to pass on to me, I can be reached at info at evmusings.com. On the socials I'm on bluesky at evmusings.bsky.social. I'm also on Instagram at evmusings where I post those little short videos in the odd podcast extract regularly. Why not follow me there?

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Now they're 99p each or equivalent and you can get them on the Kindle store on Amazon. Now check out the links in the show notes for more information as well as a link to my regular EV Musings newsletter and associated articles.

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Gary Comerford (: 52:23

Now, if you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you. Why not let me know you've got to this point by tweeting me at musings.eve with the words, highly esteemed guests, hashtag if you know, know, nothing else.

And thanks as always to my co-founder Simon. You know, I'll fill this bit in offline when I found something that's a great quote from all any of you. I'll see how that goes.

Vicky (: 52:40

We're quite used to this, Gary. We're very often in the same place.

Gary Comerford (: 52:43

So thanks for listening. Goodbye.