197 - The Education Episode

Gary C: 00:00:00

Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 197 of EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles, and things that are interesting to

Gary C: 00:00:07

electric vehicle owners. On the show today we'll be looking at EV education and what we can do about it

Gary C: 00:00:24

This season the podcast is sponsored by Zapmap the free to download app that helps EV drivers search plan and pay for their charging. Before we start,

Gary C: 00:00:35

I wanted to let you know that I'm already looking at episodes for next season. Any particular topics you want me to cover suggestions to

Gary C: 00:00:43

info@evmusings.com Please.

Gary C: 00:00:52

Our main topic of discussion today is education. I recently encountered a young EV driver who will call Sarah. She was at a charge stop trying to use

Gary C: 00:01:03

one of the high powered chargers there. As I was looking at the Tesla V4 units which are co located. Sarah was trying to plug her car into the

Gary C: 00:01:12

charger in the adjacent parking slot rather than the one attached to her slot. So I went over and asked her if she'd rather try and the new Tesla

Gary C: 00:01:21

chargers which are cheaper. Now Sara lives in Brighton, she has no off street parking she drives an eCorsa, she uses local AC to charge and she's

Gary C: 00:01:31

only recently passed a test as evidenced by the provisional driver's ticket on her car. As she charged and we were chatting, I learned several

Gary C: 00:01:39

things that concern slash annoying me. Number one, Sara uses Waze to locate her charges. Now I've checked it out and there's some fairly decent

Gary C: 00:01:49

functionality in the app, but it doesn't have all the charges on there and it doesn't show all charges on or near a route. For example, on the

Gary C: 00:01:57

route to my mother's it only shows the units located physically on the road I was taking and not the ones that might use that were located just

Gary C: 00:02:05

off a motorway junction such as Duckmanton on the M1. Although it does show both surprisingly therefore confusingly enough, but the northbound

Gary C: 00:02:15

and southbound motorway service area charges despite the fact that you would only be travelling in one particular direction. Sarah had no idea

Gary C: 00:02:24

that specific EV charger location apps such as Zapmap exist. She's also concerned when using high power chargers in case he puts too much power into

Gary C: 00:02:33

the battery and damages it. She tries not to use really fast charges as a result. Thirdly, Sarah always charges up to 100% on rapid charges, and

Gary C: 00:02:43

wonders why it takes so long to finish. Number four, she had no idea how fast her car was supposed to charge , and what's a good charge

Gary C: 00:02:52

speed to expect. And fifth, Sara has no idea which charging networks rate highly amongst drives and which are the ones to avoid. Now at the risk of

Gary C: 00:03:02

sounding like a broken record. This comes down to one thing and one thing only education. Now I don't fault, nor criticise Sarah, for not knowing

Gary C: 00:03:13

these things we all have to learn. But somewhere down the line in the big scheme of things when she took delivery of her car Sarah was not given a

Gary C: 00:03:21

suitable handover or a link to information sources that help answer those questions. In other words, we the generic, we failed Sara. Education is the

Gary C: 00:03:33

most vital thing when it comes to electric vehicles. We've talked before on this show about the mindset change. People think that EVs are just

Gary C: 00:03:40

ice cars where you put electrons in instead of petrol. At the basic level, yes, they are. But as we've also said on the show, nobody's born knowing

Gary C: 00:03:50

how to drive or run a petrol car. You either learn by osmosis, or by actually getting out there and doing it. Nobody knew exactly how to use a petrol

Gary C: 00:03:59

pump the first time they did it. And having worked in petrol stations for several years, I can tell you from experience that many of them still have

Gary C: 00:04:06

very little clue. A friend of the podcast Ashley Bannister from LinkedIn reply to a post I wrote on this subject and he said, quote, education is so

Gary C: 00:04:15

important. And you're right. It's not the driver's fault. The first stage of learning is subconscious incompetence. In other words, we don't know what

Gary C: 00:04:24

we don't know. So it's absolutely up to the supply chain to provide some education and quote. The key there is subconscious incompetence. We don't know

Gary C: 00:04:35

what we don't know. The statements that Sarah was making are seemingly silly in the big scheme of things. Quote, I try not to use high powered

Gary C: 00:04:43

chargers in case they damage the battery. Now obviously as EV drivers we know that this isn't the case but someone brand new to drive in these

Gary C: 00:04:50

would have absolutely no idea. If you have no idea then a statement like that makes absolute sense. Now, with nearly 200 podcast episodes covered all

Gary C: 00:05:00

aspects of the EB and renewable world. I hope there's an amount of information in education here which a new driver like Sarah might find useful.

Gary C: 00:05:09

If I've helped even one new EV driver, I consider that a win. But in the big scheme of things we need to build in educating lots of Evie drivers

Gary C: 00:05:18

and potentially be drivers. I asked a few select listeners and fellow Eevee drivers to give me their experiences of how they learned about

Gary C: 00:05:27

electric vehicles.

Michael French: 00:05:29

Regarding my own EV journey and the education that I've been involved with, I mean, I've listened to various podcasts,

Michael French: 00:05:37

obviously, EV Mmusings, thank you very much, Gary, I have recommended this podcast and many, many people. It's very insightful, and also the ebooks

Michael French: 00:05:44

that you've written. And this isn't a plug, I am genuinely recommended them. They're very, very good and insightful from somebody who's been and

Michael French: 00:05:51

done it. And I think that's the thing that many people forget. We do need to listen to people who have more experience in us, especially if you go

Michael French: 00:05:57

on any sort of social media out there. You know, someone will post something about an EV and there'll be 1000 People who have never driven nev

Michael French: 00:06:04

slagging them off. So we have to be very, very mindful that there's a lot of misinformation out there. But regarding education, I mean, I kind of

Michael French: 00:06:13

did it all myself. So I went out there and I checked myself out and I took I sponged it all in from various sources, especially like I said, from

Michael French: 00:06:20

various podcasts, and my ongoing journey. I just asked people like that it all comes from people who know more than us and taking that information

Michael French: 00:06:28

and sponging off them. Because we all know that car dealers are pretty useless, and they're uneducated. And if they're not willing to be

Michael French: 00:06:34

educated, they cannot give that information on to somebody else. Why do we all think you know, 20 years ago, when I learned to drive the Highway

Michael French: 00:06:40

Code said this 20 years later, the Highway Code or something completely different, but people are so I mean, egotistical in the fact that they don't

Michael French: 00:06:49

want to be criticised about anything regarding driving a vehicle. And they're not willing to educate themselves any further. So I think there

Michael French: 00:06:56

lies our main problem.

Michael French: 00:07:00

Tim R-S: I had a Tesla since 2017, and I'm a fairly technical person. So I actually had been researching about electric vehicles for a good

Michael French: 00:07:11

couple of years before I took the plunge. I had to find a lot of the information by myself, but there was already even then quite a lot of good content

Michael French: 00:07:23

out on, say YouTube. And then I discovered the Electrek, both podcast and website, which had a lot of good news about the EV industry. And so I

Michael French: 00:07:36

used that to start following very closely what was going on. So I discovered the Fully Charged channel, which covered an awful lot more than just

Michael French: 00:07:45

Tesla's and, and really, I think that that's how I learned an awful lot about electric cars. And I had to learn things like what's the difference

Michael French: 00:07:55

between kilowatt and a kilowatt hour, I had to learn the difference between fast charging, rapid charging, all of this stuff was really covered on

Michael French: 00:08:06

these YouTube videos. I was lucky in that Tesla were very good back in those days, giving information to drivers to help them understand the

Michael French: 00:08:17

Tesla's what I understand is that, as of today, at - the kind of orientation that I had, when I when I went to pick up my car, and I managed to get

Michael French: 00:08:29

probably a good half an hour with somebody from the showroom. A lot of people don't have that same education and a lot of people, if they're buying

Michael French: 00:08:39

other cars from dealers that are not Tesla's, I've heard that there are some dealers - and so of course, some are better than others. But I've

Michael French: 00:08:48

heard that there are some dealers that really don't seem to be that committed to the electric vehicle transition. Final point. Of course, when

Michael French: 00:08:57

we all grew up, and some of us are getting on a bit more than others. We were exposed to watching people drive cars, you know, right from, you know,

Michael French: 00:09:08

from as long we as early as we can remember. So, that hasn't happened in electric vehicles. So even though they're basically the same, they're just

Michael French: 00:09:17

calls. The subtle differences are things which we haven't been exposed to all our lives. And so it's no surprise that, you know, we have to make some

Michael French: 00:09:25

effort to learn.

Mark Garland: 00:09:27

I first discovered they were even a thing in 2015, when a relative mentioned by his Twizy I started researching did a lot of YouTube,

Mark Garland: 00:09:35

which says style engaged with YouTube discovered fully charged. I had a four day test drive in a Nissan Leaf, which I thought was very generous. I

Mark Garland: 00:09:44

had a email conversation with BMW dealer about the realistic range of like three. And in the end, I settled on the B class for Mercedes. The dealers

Mark Garland: 00:09:53

didn't really understand them, and gave out lots of misinformation. For example, the salesman had been in this B class for a year, and he had a

Mark Garland: 00:10:02

route to work which was either motorway or backroads. And he, obviously the motorway burned through more, more electrons. And he was

Mark Garland: 00:10:11

absolutely convinced the reason why he was because there was no ability to regen on the motorway, and I said, No, no, it's speed in the square law and

Mark Garland: 00:10:18

all that and he was absolutely adamant that I was wrong.

Gary C: 00:10:20

In that segment, you heard from Michael French, Tim, Rault-Smith, and Mark Garland. Quite a few different stories there about how people

Gary C: 00:10:28

were educated, which means the challenge is quite difficult. For the purposes of this episode, I'm going to split education into different aspects,

Gary C: 00:10:37

each of which need different approaches, different resources, and different educators. So let's start. The first level of education is basic

Gary C: 00:10:46

education which a current high ICE driver will need to make the decision to go electric. What range can I expect with a car? How do I charge it

Gary C: 00:10:54

if I don't have home charging? Will the range drop in winter? How much cheaper will it be to run than an ice car? How efficient is the vehicle how

Gary C: 00:11:03

powerful is this vehicle? For some people, this will be the result of going into a car dealership and speaking to a salesman. And this is where the

Gary C: 00:11:12

first problem occurs. Discussions I've had with car dealers so far indicate that there are two main issues with dealer education. The first one

Gary C: 00:11:21

is that not all dealers get the information they need to know about EVs. In a typical Ford dealership, for example, each salesman will have

Gary C: 00:11:29

will have a car that they take home every night. The cars they use aren't chosen by them, they're allocated by the dealership, and they tend to be

Gary C: 00:11:38

one of the range of cars sold by that franchise. So if Ford at a particular dealership have 10 different models and 20 salesmen, each model will

Gary C: 00:11:47

go to two salesmen. The Ford Mach E in the UK at least will only ever go to two of the 20 salesmen even though all of them will be expected to sell

Gary C: 00:11:55

the car. On top of that, for various financial reasons, the salesman would rather sell a petrol or diesel version that sitting on the forecourt

Gary C: 00:12:04

that they know will sell rather than an electric version about which they have little knowledge or which might be on backorder for several months for

Gary C: 00:12:13

dealers to commission is earned on the delivery of the vehicle to the customer, not on the order of the vehicle. So if you had a Ford Focus ready to

Gary C: 00:12:22

go, or a Ford MachE with a three month wait for delivery, which one would you as a dealer, prioritise, selling? I find this a little

Gary C: 00:12:30

disconcerting, and I wonder how much of it is deliberate. I mean, if you ask a Vauxhall dealer about the Vauxhall Corsa, GS or design or

Gary C: 00:12:38

ultimate, they can speak chapter and verse about its top speed, acceleration, engine output, fuel efficiency, etc. But if you look at the electric

Gary C: 00:12:47

Corsa, GS or design or ultimate, I'm betting they don't know about top charge speeds battery chemistry, the power output of the electric motor,

Gary C: 00:12:56

or whether the car comes equipped with a seven kilowatt charge cable and a three pin plug cable or just the seven kilowatt cable. Why is that? Are

Gary C: 00:13:05

the OEMs not providing them with information they need to answer these questions. Or is the information there but the dealers aren't bothering

Gary C: 00:13:13

to learn it? If not, why not? There's also the FUD aspect in play her fear, uncertainty and doubt a lot of members of the general public will have

Gary C: 00:13:22

heard so on the anti EB misinformation that has been spread by pretty large media organisations out there. A lot of dealers will probably not have

Gary C: 00:13:31

any data to push that back. I mean, how many dealers could respond to a claim that EV batteries are quote made from minerals mined by slave

Gary C: 00:13:39

children and quote without some fairly specialised knowledge about artisanal mining, battery chemistry, and alternate use of cobalt? So there's

Gary C: 00:13:48

definitely an education need around that particular aspect of EV ownership. That's assuming the dealers are interested enough to actually find

Gary C: 00:13:57

the data out to counter the misinformation. They're not convinced to sell the cars in the first place, they're hardly going to be convinced

Gary C: 00:14:05

to look up anything which can be used against them. If a customer comes in asking you about cobalt in batteries, it's easy for a dealer to say

Gary C: 00:14:14

'Good point let's have a look at a nice petrol Astra instead'. Anecdotally, at least one dealership of a major German based OEM has had no

Gary C: 00:14:22

training slash development work at all, on electric vehicles makes it difficult to then sell the only segment of their vehicle lineup which is

Gary C: 00:14:30

electric right. Next level of education needed is that for when a new EV driver takes delivery of their first electric vehicle. This will cover

Gary C: 00:14:39

aspects of running one on a day to day basis. How do you charge? What are the different cables? Why are there different connectors? How would you find

Gary C: 00:14:48

charges with apps like Zapmap? Which charge point operators worth using and which aren't? Why does the charge speed vary and Why might it not be what

Gary C: 00:14:57

you expect? How do you drive efficiently in a vehicle such as this? Now hopefully a big chunk of education of that sort can come from listening to,

Gary C: 00:15:06

he says, modestly, this podcast. The issue here is one of delivery. And by that I mean the delivery of the actual vehicle itself. Now, I've mentioned

Gary C: 00:15:15

before on the show, but both of the electric vehicles I've had have come on the back of a low loader to my house, the person doing the handover

Gary C: 00:15:24

wasn't informed about the details of the car, other than a rather perfunctory, this is how you switch it on. And this is the app you need to

Gary C: 00:15:32

download to set it all up. And this is a prime opportunity to do an informed handover and learn about the car. Let's take a little sidebar here.

Gary C: 00:15:41

Back in the day, Milton Keynes had an EV experience centre in the main shopping mall, you could go in there, chat with knowledgeable people,

Gary C: 00:15:49

and take an electric car away for a weekend or even longer. But when you did this, they didn't just hand over the keys and bunch of bits of

Gary C: 00:15:58

paper. The handover process took a good hour, and it involves someone going with you to a nearby public charger and physically taking you through a

Gary C: 00:16:07

charging session. They were also able to handle and answer all the questions you may have had, because they were informed and that was their job.

Gary C: 00:16:16

Unfortunately, lack of funding shut down this initiative. But there is something similar in place, albeit not quite the same. The two main

Gary C: 00:16:24

Gridserve electric forecourts at Braintree and Norwich both have people there whose job it is to educate and inform potential car buyers about EVs.

Gary C: 00:16:33

The reason it's not the same is that the EV experience Centre in Milton Keynes wasn't trying to sell anybody anything they were simply there to

Gary C: 00:16:41

inform Gridserve are providing their expertise as part of their leasing programme. So they have a smaller number of cars. And they're primarily

Gary C: 00:16:50

focused on helping you make a decision to lease with them.

Gary C: 00:16:54

Now, the third aspect of education is knowledge transfer to someone who's fairly technical, someone like myself, I can research I know what

Gary C: 00:17:02

I'm looking for. And I know which questions to ask. But in the big scheme of things, that's not a sustainable model. One of the reasons I was an

Gary C: 00:17:11

early adopter to electric cars was because I'm the sort of person who doesn't mind looking into things and doing investigations, etc. I don't mind

Gary C: 00:17:18

working in areas of uncertainty where not everything is known about a certain topic. I don't like change. But not everyone is the same as me.

Gary C: 00:17:26

Not everyone is an early adopter. So for people like me, the information I'm looking for is by definition going to be different to the

Gary C: 00:17:34

information other people are looking at. I'm quite prepared to go look into things like battery chemistries, and the C rate for battery charge and

Gary C: 00:17:42

discharge, that sort of thing. I don't mind trying to understand charge curves and all the fairly esoteric things you might need to understand to

Gary C: 00:17:49

make things like being an early adopter of an electric car work for you. So the type of education I need is completely different as an

Gary C: 00:17:56

early adopter to the kind of things someone in the general public would need.

Gary C: 00:18:02

The fourth aspect of education is to my mum, as she'd been driving on for quite a few years knows petrol cars like the back of her hand, but bit of

Gary C: 00:18:10

a technophobe. Didn't want an iPhone or an iPad because they're too complicated. I'd ended up getting one anyway. She's constantly calling me

Gary C: 00:18:19

and asking me why something doesn't work on her iPad. 'All I did was I click this download link and...' dah dah da, you know, that sort of thing.

Gary C: 00:18:27

She needs enough information that she can use the vehicle without needing daily assistance, but she also needs to make sure she isn't overwhelmed by

Gary C: 00:18:35

the huge amount of information that is out there concerning EVs. There's no way for example, she'd be able to listen to 200 Episode back catalogue of

Gary C: 00:18:44

mine because they would overwhelmed. As an example, she knows I have a heat pump. I've explained that the heat pump is effectively a

Gary C: 00:18:52

replacement for my old boiler. What the boiler used to do is now done by the heat pump. But she still asked questions like the radiators in the

Gary C: 00:19:01

normal house work with a heat pump does it still send hot water around them? Now she's going to struggle immensely trying to understand things

Gary C: 00:19:07

like AC versus DC charging charge curves and things like that, which means she needs to be introduced in gradually and over a period of time.

Gary C: 00:19:17

A book probably isn't going to work for her. For my mum. It needs repetition, and consistency. Then, there's a type of education you need to

Gary C: 00:19:28

provide to the second hand market. At the moment, this is the largest segment of EV growth. Recent price drops have resulted in more electric

Gary C: 00:19:36

vehicles being bought secondhand. Many of them are coming through dealers. So we have the same issue as we had with new EVs, but a large number of them

Gary C: 00:19:44

are coming from websites such as Carwow or autotrader where a dealer interaction may not necessarily happen. Many roles have been bought

Gary C: 00:19:54

from auction sites after they come off lease. Again. The education aspect is lacking.

Gary C: 00:20:00

And I can't finish this episode without mentioning as I often seem to do whenever it comes to EVs, Tesla. One of the reasons they've managed to

Gary C: 00:20:09

corner the market with EVs is they've made it as simple as possible to charge. The in car entertainment system will navigate them

Gary C: 00:20:17

automatically to a charger. It will tell them how many stalls are free. Once they're all the user has to do is go to the unit pick up the charger

Gary C: 00:20:24

and approach the charge port, it will open automatically connect and start charging, it will cut off at 80% if the charge is busy, and it's

Gary C: 00:20:32

just seamless. That's the sort of thing my mother wants. She doesn't need to worry about different charges type she doesn't need to worry about

Gary C: 00:20:40

payment processing or choosing the correct cable and charge point she doesn't need to worry about charge speeds or cutting off at 80% to protect the

Gary C: 00:20:47

battery. It's as easy and seamless as her existing petrol car.

Gary C: 00:20:51

So before we finish, let's have a look at possible places where you can get good quality EV education. Obviously, there's this podcast, he

Gary C: 00:21:04

says modestly, but mine isn't the only one. The Fully Charged show/ everything electric podcast also covers a lot of interesting topics that are

Gary C: 00:21:12

both educational, and fun. As many people have already discovered, there's YouTube content creators like Fully Charged, Electrifying.com,

Gary C: 00:21:22

Andrew Till (Mr. EV) - former guest of the podcast. TeslaBjorn and many, many others all do informative videos on different aspects of

Gary C: 00:21:29

electric vehicle ownership. Then there's the EV clubs. The EV Nexus is a place to start to learn about which clubs are in your area. Pretty much

Gary C: 00:21:40

all the counties have some sort of representation in the EV clubs. They meet regularly usually over the summer although the Yorkshire EV club has a

Gary C: 00:21:48

lengthen definition of what summer means. And it's a chance for owners to meet and chat about all things EV is a great opportunity to listen and

Gary C: 00:21:55

learn. Then there's EVA England, this is the organisation acting on behalf of EV drivers, and lobbying government for changes. A lot of the

Gary C: 00:22:05

recent public transport regulations 2023 have come as a direct result of the lobbying they're doing. If you become a member, you get a rather snazzy

Gary C: 00:22:13

member's handbook, which is one of the best documents I've ever read about owning and running an EV. Apologies, apologies. That last sentence

Gary C: 00:22:24

should read. If you become a member, you get a rather snazzy members handbook, which is one of the best documents I've ever written about owning

Gary C: 00:22:32

and running an EV because, you know, I wrote it. But all of those resources are things which rely on you as an individual to find them and engage.

Gary C: 00:22:42

There's not enough out there coming from dealers, manufacturers or even the government. Remember the old 'clunk click every trip' public service

Gary C: 00:22:51

announcements, or the tell said adverts when British Gas was been privatised (I'm aging myself now, right?) Or the communication talking about

Gary C: 00:23:00

the Brexit referendum? When do you agree or disagree with it, there was information out there. These are all funded by the government or branches

Gary C: 00:23:08

of it. There's a case to say the government should be producing similar things for electric vehicles. Imagine one on chargr etiquette. For example, when

Gary C: 00:23:18

your car reaches around 80%, it's probably quicker to head off to your next destination. Rather than wait for it to go right to the top. It'll save you

Gary C: 00:23:25

time and open up a charge of someone else who might need it. You know, that sort of thing. The possibilities are endless. Now, I don't think

Gary C: 00:23:34

we're going to be able to sort out education in one episode. But I do know that unless and until we have a consistent way of informing the new EV

Gary C: 00:23:41

drivers about some of the fairly esoteric aspects of EV driving, we're going to end up with dissatisfied owners. And this will have a knock on

Gary C: 00:23:49

effect for uptake and ultimately, the impact on the planet. Also, let's not forget that other countries such as Norway, have managed to leap

Gary C: 00:23:59

this particular hurdle without a great deal of difficulty. If I recall correctly from a discussion with Tor Harritsjoi last season, lot

Gary C: 00:24:07

of this was government funded, especially by making it appealing to go electric.

Gary C: 00:24:14

Finally, just to loop back to Sarah, the young girl I met at the charger I gave Sara my podcast details so it's entirely possible she's listening

Gary C: 00:24:23

to this episode. If you are and I know you're not actually called Sarah but I needed a name with which to refer to you. I hope you're enjoying your

Gary C: 00:24:31

eCorsa in Brighton. Thanks for inspiring this episode.

Gary C: 00:24:37

It's time for a Coll EV or Renwable thing to share with the listeners. An Ohio Company change retired wind turbine blades into beautiful park benches,

Gary C: 00:24:45

planters and picnic tables for public spaces across the US with anything up to 9000 wind turbine blades per year being retired, anything

Gary C: 00:24:55

that can be second use for them is to be commended Canvus C A N V U S a US startup brings the blades into the factory in 40 foot sections, custom using

Gary C: 00:25:06

ropes or and finishes with epoxy paint. In addition to the edges Canvus uses recycled materials from other industries such as old tires,

Gary C: 00:25:14

shoes, and plastic waste. The resulting pieces of furniture are beautiful, functional, and expensive, which is where their business model

Gary C: 00:25:24

comes in. The pieces are paid for by sponsors and sponsors can be anyone from a family that wants to commemorate a loved one to a local business that

Gary C: 00:25:32

wants to increase his visibility. Each bench features a QR code that provides more information about that sponsor. With capacity for around

Gary C: 00:25:42

11,000 blades per year. This looks like a great way to promote the circular economy

Gary C: 00:25:53

And that's the show today. Hope you enjoyed listening to it. If you want to contact me I can be emailed at the new email which is info at ev

Gary C: 00:26:00

musings.com. I'm also on Twitter, EV Musings TV. If you want to support the podcast and newsletter please consider contributing to becoming an Eevee

Gary C: 00:26:08

musings patron the links in the show notes don't want to send them something on a monthly basis. Well, if you enjoyed this episode, buy me a

Gary C: 00:26:16

coffee. Go to ko-fi.com/evie musings and you can do just that. Okay? Oh dash fyi.com/evey musings, it's Apple Pay to. I have a couple of books out

Gary C: 00:26:27

there if you want something to read on your Kindle. So you've got an electric is available on Amazon worldwide for the measly sum of 99p or

Gary C: 00:26:34

equivalent. And it's a great little introduction to even with an electric car. So you've got renewable is also available on Amazon for the same

Gary C: 00:26:42

99p and it covers installing solar panels, a storage battery and a heat pump. Why not check them out? Links for everything we've talked about

Gary C: 00:26:50

in the podcast today are in the description. If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you. Why not? Let me know

Gary C: 00:26:58

you've got to this point by tweeting me @MusingsEV with the words, another brick in the wall hashtag if you know you know nothing else. So okay, I'll

Gary C: 00:27:07

wait for that one for you. Thanks as always to my co founder Simon. You know I often wonder if his life would have been radically different if he

Gary C: 00:27:14

decided to become a stamp collector. Looking for a penny black or a penny read it philately exhibitions. He told me he really wasn't into

Gary C: 00:27:21

things like that because it's so easy to make a bad deal when it comes to buying the perfect stamp

Mark Garland: 00:27:25

that dealers didn't really understand them. And getting that lots of misinformation. Thanks for listening.

Gary C: 00:27:31

Bye