313 The Motorhome Matt Episode

Gary Comerford (: 00:00

Could you live in your electric vehicle? Now, I'm not talking about becoming some sort of homeless individual forced to live out of his car. Although friend of the podcast, Patrick, has managed to take living in his car to an art form. He's taken his Volkswagen e-UP! right the way across Europe and spent next to nothing on hotels. He's converted the inside to accommodate a bed and uses the car's traction battery and some judicious AC charging to keep warm.

I talk about having an electric vehicle in which you can easily travel long distances and stay overnight without major inconvenience. It can be done.

There's also Glynn Hopkins, who has an original Nissan ENV200 van that is kitted out as a full camper, double bed, kitchen, captain's chair in the front seat. And despite being originally hampered by a small battery and slow Chadmo charging, he took his wife and dog and son right the way across Europe on numerous occasions, Spain, Portugal, even Slovenia. Since then he's upgraded the battery and bought a Chademo to CCS converter to allow him to use a much wider range of chargers.

And as I say, he's now got a son that goes with them, so three of them in a small van like that. Now, whilst I find those sort of conversions fascinating, I'm a little more interested in what's actually out there for people who genuinely want to take their home with them when it comes to EV Life.

Hi, I'm Gary, and this is EV Musings, a podcast about renewables, electric vehicles, and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. On the show today, we'll be looking at the state of play when it comes to electric motorhome.

And van life. can I ask you to do the usual? Bit of a like, subscribe, leave a comment, hit the notification bell, you know all the usual gubbins. Now we know that there are a couple of issues at the moment with EV motorhomes, and the first is that there aren't any specific battery electric motorhomes available, although there are a couple of camper vans. The second is that converting an existing van to a camper still brings the issue that exists.

for the underlying van you've been converted to, which is what's the range and what's the charging speed, et cetera. So to help me work my way through these points, I'd like to introduce my guest today, Matt Sims.

Gary Comerford Zapmap Intro (: 02:03

The EV Music's podcast is sponsored by ZapMap, the go to app for EV drivers to find and pay for public charging with confidence.

Matt Sims (: 02:11

I'm Matt Sims. I'm the host and presenter of the Motorhome Matt podcast, and I work in the motorhome campervan industry. We have a business that hires and sells motorhomes. We have a retail business called That Leisure Shop and a storage business that stores them as well. So my whole world these days is all hotels on wheels.

Gary Comerford (: 02:32

So we're podcaster to podcaster today, which I don't often have on the show. So that's quite interesting. before we start,

Matt Sims (: 02:37

I-I-I'm in awe.

Gary Comerford (: 02:39

yeah, don't don't, don't, don't, don't start doing that. No, no. What you know, we're just people, we just talk you know, to anybody who wants to listen. So

Matt Sims (: 02:49

Hopefully they do.

Gary Comerford (: 02:51

hopefully, yeah. we I want to talk today about electrification of motorhomes and camper vans. And I think for the people who are listening,

It might be good for you to sort of give me a differentiation between a motorhome and a camper van for the purposes

Matt Sims (: 03:08

Sure.

Gary Comerford (: 03:09

of this discussion, please.

Matt Sims (: 03:11

It's a commonly asked question and one I get asked a lot. I think the fundamental is that a camper van is a metal box. So a van with a sliding side door that's been converted to a living accommodation and a motorhome tends to be the cabin chassis where the box was put on the back by the manufacturer. And often a motorhome has heating, hot water, toilet, bathroom, all the mod cons of home, whereas a camper van

maybe has slightly less features and often has a pop top. But those lines are blurring and they certainly have over the last five or six years. But that's the primary difference. And in this country, we struggle with the term motorhome, campervan, leisure vehicle. The Americans have sussed it. They just call them all an RV, a recreational vehicle. But in Europe and the UK, our shows are

They're comically named because they are the Motorhome, Campervan and Caravan Show and you need big business cards. So I think, that's the primary difference. Does that help?

Gary Comerford (: 04:14

It does. It does. And I think the whole point of of the the the reference there to the American side of things and RVs, 'cause when when I think of motorhomes, 'cause to me traditionally in the UK, we're a caravan nation. Now I know that's not strictly true, but if I go back to my you know, my youth, there were a lot of caravans on the road. And yet when we go and look at America, they're all into the RVs, the huge Winnebagos that are, you know, fifty, sixty foot long and y cruise down

Route sixty six all day and it it's it seems to be a completely different way of doing things, but it's not necessarily, is it? I think there's a large amount of overlap now.

Matt Sims (: 04:51

Huge, certainly in the States they use caravans, but they're often called fifth wheels and their caravans are generally much bigger than ours. But what we've seen in Europe and certainly the UK is a massive decline in caravans. So the thing you tow and a huge boom in camper vans and motor homes. Camper vans have grown hugely since we allowed to use the C word on here, COVID.

that had a massive impact in our business and detrimentally and positively and now we're paying the price for that. But that's a whole, it was a whole other podcast, I'm sure.

Gary Comerford (: 05:30

Indeed, indeed. And I think one of the key differentiators for me on things like a camper van versus a motorhome. A motorhome is it's custom made, it's designed for one thing. Whereas a camper van is usually something that's been converted from something else. Not always the case, but generally, you know, I I follow quite a few sort of van lifers on on YouTube, and generally they'll get a a a sprinter or a decato or something like that.

And the rip out all the insides, put all the insulation in, and it then becomes a converted vehicle. And that gives you lots and lots of possibilities for, you know, do you want to put a shower in there? And is the bed going to be a permanent one? And how's the garage function going to work? And all that sort of stuff. And I don't think that's the same for a motorhome. I mean, you can spec it and define it yourself, but it comes as a motorhome generally, rather than something that was something previously that has been converted. Is that fair to say?

Matt Sims (: 06:25

That's fair to say, yeah. And the other factor here that really confuses matters even more is that the DVLA call them a motor caravan. That's the official classification of a motor home that is not a van with windows, but is a motor caravan. So it's fraught with terminology that as many sectors like the EV one, there are lots of terminology and it gets very confusing.

Gary Comerford (: 06:49

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes. And that's a a nice segue, I think, to to sort of move over to the electrification aspect. Now, I know you've done at least one episode on your own podcast about electric motorhomes. And you had the electric van man himself, Mr. Paul Kirby, former guest of my podcast. it was a great listen. but I want to start by pulling

Matt Sims (: 07:08

Thank you.

Gary Comerford (: 07:09

a quote from that episode and asking you about it, because you said there's a lot of resistance to electrification.

of

our little world here of motorhomes and camper vans. And I understand why. And I'm resistant to it too. Talk to me a little bit about that resistance. Where does it come from and how much is founded on the fact versus perception and and FUD, fear, uncertainty and doubt, please.

Matt Sims (: 07:32

I love that term, Fudd, I discovered that from you, Gary. I think this was a conversation with Paul that was probably live on stage a few years ago, would that be fair? Is that right? Yeah. And Paul

Gary Comerford (: 07:41

Yep. I think so, yeah. Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 07:43

has been on the podcast several times since. I think

Gary Comerford (: 07:47

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 07:47

there's been a big change in acceptance of and the inevitability of electric motor homes.

And what I've observed is I have the huge pleasure of standing on Motorhome Show stages all year. I do about 15 or 16 of them. And I host the main stage at lots of these Motorhome Shows. And one of the questions I always ask the audience is how many of you here are considering or looking for an electric campervan? And there is inevitably one hand it goes up. The vast majority of people...

are not in the market for an EV campervan. But what's been interesting is the number of people going to those shows in an EV car. And this has been the huge change where I then asked the question, how many of you have come today as a day visitor and you're in your EV car? And that's been a huge shift. And I think that adoption of electric cars has meant that people have gone, well, maybe an EV campervan could work.

And so there is a slow acceptance that it could work. I think as a market, as a pastime, we have huge fears about it's all the classic textbook stuff, range anxiety and charger network. How am going to charge it? Can you charge it on a campsite whilst we have 16 amp charge points for our habitation area, the little blue plug that you see on motorhomes and caravans.

Many campsites don't allow EV cars to be towed on the campsite. And there's been a huge shift into how we pay for electricity on our campsites. We're now using RFID cards often to pay as we go. And that's been met with huge resistance, but it's a much fairer system. I think there's, since that conversation with Paul, and it was a brilliant conversation, Ryan Bodige also joined me from Ford.

and we had a really good debate. I've learned a lot about the potential of electric motorhome. We have a hybrid car now. We live in a very old farmhouse, so having an EV charge point would be very expensive, so we don't. And for us, a nice powered car works perfectly. But what we need in our industry is the manufacturers to actually start adopting and pioneering.

with electric camper vans. A couple have. A few years ago, a manufacturer called Bailey of Bristol converted an e-Transit, which I did a review on, and it was called the E Endeavour, but it was

Gary Comerford (: 10:17

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 10:17

a pilot project and there's been no future plans to roll that out. A German brand called Bursner also did the same, again, a few years ago. What's interesting is next week as we record

this,

Next week I'm heading to a huge show at the NEC in Birmingham and the PV5 is going to be featured at the show as a converted campervan and I've spoken

Gary Comerford (: 10:39

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 10:39

to lots of converters that have adopted this along with the Farizon SV and we are going to see those two products start to become very small campervans but nonetheless contenders. The PV7 is coming in February and I'm

Gary Comerford (: 10:53

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 10:54

excited to see what converters do with that.

The ID.Buzz has been the only real contender and it's just too small

Gary Comerford (: 11:02

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 11:02

and too expensive. Where it gets interesting is when we get into the mainstream chassis donors which are of course Fiat with the Ducato,

Gary Comerford (: 11:12

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 11:13

Mercedes with the Sprinter and MAN, Crafter. When those e-vans become very viable the world of motorhomes change and how

electric motorhomes are built is also a massive learning curve for manufacturers because they use the ladder chassis of let's take the Ducato. It's been one of the strongest contenders for years. have made

Gary Comerford (: 11:35

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 11:36

huge steps into the market in recent years, but that ladder chassis is ideal because there's space for water tanks and waste pipes and so on. You can't do that with an electric van because you've got a solid floor.

So where all that kit and caboodle goes in the van is a big consideration for the manufacturer. So I guess it's two pronged at the moment. We're not seeing manufacturers push toward electric motor homes and we're not seeing the demand at all from consumers in any notable number. And I think FUD is probably the underlying landscape of that.

Gary Comerford (: 12:15

Yeah. It's interesting because I was watching a review of the new Pv5 camper this week. And

Matt Sims (: 12:21

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 12:22

one of the, you know, I like to read the comments on these things just to see where people are with that. And the overall tone of the of all the comments was, nah, not for me. There were a couple who go, Yeah, yeah, I've got EVs, I love them. But but there was one in particular that stood out. And his comment basically was, wouldn't ever get me in one of those. Fire hazard.

Couldn't sleep on top of an explosive battery like that, spend all your life waiting to charge, and you'll need to replace the battery in five years. Now, all of those claims are blatantly untrue, but this person was adamant that this was the case. Now, as with many things related to EVs, it's all down to a lack of education. So,

Matt Sims (: 13:00

Yep.

Gary Comerford (: 13:00

how do we move the education aspect forward for a lot of people who, for example, listen to your podcast? How how can we start to

To get that level of education up so that, I mean, personally, I would like to see everybody in electric, but I understand that people don't want to. But if it's a conscious choice they've made based on the facts, I'm okay with that. If it's a choice they've made because, you know, somebody they know on Facebook has spoken to somebody whose father goes to school or went to school with somebody who's now got a brother who went to the barber and his barber saw one of these cars, one of these EVs burst into flames, you know.

That's just that's not to me a valid reason for not getting an electric vehicle. So talk to me a little bit about education then.

Matt Sims (: 13:43

Yeah, this is why I've tried to expose the topic or give the topic airtime on my podcast, because we have millions of views and downloads with hundreds of thousands of people who engaging with it every week. education is key. We need more education. We need the right facts. The problem is my audience, who are typically and to generalise, but are typical

customer avatar, you like, listener avatar, is a 55 year old man, 55 plus, and we read papers and consume media that populates this often incorrect information. That's your industry's massive challenge, is mainstream media. And I try and do my little bit, but I can't take on the mail and the telegraph in those, you know,

huge organisations. So mainstream media I think is very responsible for giving and populating these often misinformation. And EV carries a risk, of course it does, so does driving around with a huge tank of petrol or diesel under you. But we've done that for donkey's years. And referring back to my now dear friend Paul Kirby, he made a brilliant comment in that interview where

He said, we're going to spend the next 10 years relearning what we've been doing for the last 100 years. And he's absolutely right. It's true. And I think was Rory Sutherland made a great analogy between an electric car and an ice car. And if someone came along now with an ice car and said, I've got the idea for a car. it's going to be powered by petrol. And it's going to be really noisy. And it's got

however many hundreds of moving parts when you can make the comparison to electric. and can I refill it at home? No, you have to go somewhere to do that. And you look at it from that objective and I get it. So education is so important, it really is. And I would love more people to come into my world, the motorhome camper van world, and educate us. The door is open. So I invite you, Gary, to come to a show.

and others in your peer group to come to a Motome show and let's do an onstage recording because people are open to it. It's still very, very early days. The end product is still not available for us to buy mainstream. The PV5 review Sussex camper vans have converted, I think 30.

cturer making in the UK doing: 3000

electric vans are going to be mainstream. But I think we see it as a long way away and we don't need to worry about it now. I think the only concern people have is if I buy a brand new diesel motorhome today, what's it going to be worth in 10 years time? And what's been fascinating is I've been looking at electric T7s, the PV5, and they are very comparable in price.

Gary Comerford (: 17:00

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 17:00

to

the diesel alternative. In fact, they're often cheaper. And I did not expect to see that. I thought an e-camper, let's call it that, would be more money. But no, they're looking like they're going to be 60k, which is very comparable to a new diesel version. So

Gary Comerford (: 17:17

Mm.

Matt Sims (: 17:17

education is everything and we have to start there, but we need willing candidates like yourself to help be that educator.

And I'm trying to do my bit and we've put quite a bit of content out trying to bust myths and trying to re-educate people on the facts. There's a huge move in our industry toward lithium batteries on the living area. It's very much the blue-eyed boy topic. And I've just done a huge upgrade on my own motorhome, my own camper van. And that's on YouTube where we had two

Life Pro 4 batteries fitted to it by a company called Roma and all the Victron kit that goes with that and we can live off grid now if the sun's out all the time. I don't need to hook up at all and that's been a huge topic and I think there is an acceptance of Life Pro 4 technology in the van and I'm sleeping on top of it where I think it's a natural side progression into

powertrain being electric and increasingly an acceptance that that technology is not dangerous, it's not going to blow up, that fires from a electric car, electric van are probably less common than on an ICE vehicle. But there is so much content out there, you know, if there's a car catches fire anywhere, but it was electric. It's just

Gary Comerford (: 18:39

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 18:39

the immediate go-to position. So I think

The e-movement has work to do to still educate the mainstream and people who are not necessarily in it.

Gary Comerford (: 18:52

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 18:53

How we do that is every way we can, I'd say.

Gary Comerford (: 18:56

Yeah. And I am more than happy to come up and stand on stage with you and, you know, give a little talk, answer questions, things like that. That's that's kind of what I do, you know, a lot of the time. So and I think

Matt Sims (: 19:08

Can

we afford you though? That's the problem.

Gary Comerford (: 19:10

Well, I think you'll find my rates are very reasonable.

Matt Sims (: 19:13

Ha

Gary Comerford (: 19:16

but no, I d I think what you're saying is actually crucial because and and Paul Kirby will will echo this as well, this sentiment as well. A lot of people like myself, we're very, very good at standing up and talking to other people who drive electric vehicles. So we're kind of in a little bit of a an echo chamber in a bubble. And one of the things that we've all got to do is to get outside that bubble.

And start to have those conversations. And I think something like a camper caravan show, you know, that would be a a perfect starting point for at least someone like me to come out and start to dip my toe in the water of people who may not be quite as receptive to electric vehicles as some of the people that I speak to. So I'll chat with you offline about doing that. Let me

Matt Sims (: 19:55

Do, yeah, there's a very

receptive audience for it, for sure.

Gary Comerford (: 19:59

Fantastic. I appreciate that. and I think one of the things that I would want to talk about if I was going to have that conversation is to my mind that when I've spoken to people who may be considering potentially electric vehicles and potentially camper vans, is the whole concept of range. In reality.

I mean, a lot of people will say to me, well, you know, we do we do hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles in our campus and we go up to Scotland and we go down to you know we go over to Europe and all that sort of stuff. Can't do that in electric. It's kind of well, yes and no. Talk to me a little bit about what on a on a typical day-by-day basis, somebody in a let's say a camper van, what sort of mileage are they going to be doing on a day-to-day basis? I mean, yeah.

They may be away for weeks at a time and they may do thousands of miles over those weeks, but i in a stint, you know, they get up in the morning, they have the breakfast, pack everything up, and then start driving. What are they gonna do? Five hours, three hours, two hours? Talk to me a little bit about that, please.

Matt Sims (: 20:59

So I think that I use the rule of three as my education tool where I say drive for

Gary Comerford (: 21:05

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 21:05

three hours and stop for two nights on day three, travel again, just slow down because people often, particularly when they're new to this, we have a higher business as I mentioned earlier and people often get this wrong. They focus too much on the motor and not enough on the home. we...

Usually when people are new adopters of this pastime, they travel every day, different campsite every day, and people try and do the NC 500 from, I'm in Bristol, and 13 hours up all the way around and back in a week. Ridiculous. You know, that's a month if you're going to do it properly and do it justice. At least a month. So there's...

Often this perception is let's drive for seven or eight hours, so three, 400 miles, and get to our destination. And then once we're there, spend the night and then we go again. But the reality is those of us who are savvy motor homers, actually we take our time. We're on holiday.

And so we might only travel 200 miles, 300 miles max in a day. And then we travel maybe 20, 30 miles. We may go and explore the local area in the van, but invariably we're using e-bikes, public transport. We might hire a car and have that delivered to the campsite. I've done that several times. And this is where a motorhome is the poor cousin to the caravan because you haven't got that ability to travel around when you're on the campsite.

There's this classic misconception about range, which for you, you accept it. You understand that you're a man of a certain age, Gary, as am I. you know, we need to do mandatory man stops every 100 or so miles because

Gary Comerford (: 22:45

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 22:45

we need the loo and we want to top up our coffee. And of

Gary Comerford (: 22:48

No.

Matt Sims (: 22:49

course, that gives you the opportunity to recharge. You know that and I've learned that. I, but we, as an audience,

are still very much stuck in the view, well I can drive 500 miles on my diesel motorhome tank, I therefore want to be able to do that on my electric motorhome, but the reality is you never do and you never will because you can't

Gary Comerford (: 23:15

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 23:15

because you're the weak link in that chain, you are going to need to stop for 20

Gary Comerford (: 23:19

Yes.

Matt Sims (: 23:19

minutes half an hour. So I think typically motorhomes are doing two, three hundred miles max.

in any one trip. Remember though, we are driving always at

typically three and a half tons or more because

Gary Comerford (: 23:33

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 23:33

we're never an empty van. We are always at weight. So that's always a consideration. And so we are at the worst end of that short stick for an e-van because we want to go a long way. We're not doing a drop delivery round. We want the ability to drive several hundred miles potentially. And we want to do it at full load because we want to take our oven, our fridge, our bed and all our stuff.

with us, so we are always pretty close to gross weight.

Gary Comerford (: 24:02

Yeah. the whole weight issue is interesting. As you may know, I spent a day out with an electric HGV driver recently around Cambridge and we were talking about weights sort of off camera and that. And my understanding on things like that is the weight per se does not affect the range if you're doing a constant speed. What does affect it is if you're doing a lot of stop starting, because you've got to move that weight from zero up to 30, 40, 50 miles an hour, and then you break and then you've got to move it again. So

The nature of the driving that you're doing determines more the impact of the the weight than the actual weight itself, which is something that that people might want to bear in mind. But moving on to that and looping back to something that you've you mentioned earlier, you talked about the, you know, two or three of the main manufacturers who create the the ladder chassis. And you say they're not actually producing anything at the moment which is electrified. And my pushback to you on that would be.

Well, why would they? Because they don't see a demand. So what sort of di what what can the industry do, people like yourself, do to go to Fiat and say, look, the ducato that you've got at the moment that's a ladder, chassis, why don't you get an electric version of that? at what point are they going to come around and go, All right, you know, there might be a little bit of demand demand here. We might have to look at producing

An electrified chassis that people can put a mothome on.

Matt Sims (: 25:22

It's a very valid point. I'd love to think I would carry that much influence at Stellantis. I can't even get them to answer the phone.

Does anybody actually work at Stellantis Group? And I put a call out to you. I'd love to get someone from Stellantis on the podcast. You may not like all the questions I want to ask you, yeah, it's a very hard part of the industry to engage with. Ford are a different ball game, I have to say.

Gary Comerford (: 25:43

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 25:45

Ford have, I mentioned Ryan earlier, who's very, very active in our niche.

The problem is you've hit the nail on the head there. Currently, it just is no demand. I don't know you're free next week to come to the NEC in Birmingham, but we will see over probably over a thousand motorhomes and camper vans at the show. It's the biggest consumer show that the NEC host to give the show a plug. mcshow.co.uk, MC show is the website. But I remember Paul came to it and visited, I was in think, Hall

14.

And I said, he said, I've been up to 17. I said, we're down. He said, where's your stand? I said, we're down in hall nine. He said, well, what's in the middle? I said, more show. And the kind of shows you go to are generally one hall or maybe two. This is the entire new halls. It's massive. I bet you there will be two or three non-ICE.

camper vans and motorhomes out the show. Everything is going to be diesel. And the hundred plus thousand people that go to that show through the course of the week that it's on, I bet a handful will be in the market for a non-ice vehicle. The vast, vast majority are still very much very happy with a diesel alternative or the diesel solution. And

Gary Comerford (: 27:02

Mm.

Matt Sims (: 27:02

there is no demand. So I think

first-hand experience I remember driving test driving the Farizon SV and it was amazing

Gary Comerford (: 27:13

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 27:14

you know I mean I've had the privilege of driving a few electric cars and you put your foot down and you're literally thrown back in your seat the torque's incredible but I'd love to see more manufacturers actually converting a larger motorhome rather than a campervan

And I think

Gary Comerford (: 27:28

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 27:29

it will drive intrigue and that's what creates demand. have to create desire. And I think the move into electric cars is definitely changing the market. And that's driving consumer awareness and acceptance. And it will

Gary Comerford (: 27:43

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 27:44

come. And I think we now believe that it's inevitable as a group of people. there's currently, well...

motorhomes were registered in: 2024

Gary Comerford (: 27:56

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 27:57

there must be millions of motorhomes and camper vans on the roads. I think there's half a million registered in the UK alone. And the UK

Gary Comerford (: 28:05

Wow.

Matt Sims (: 28:05

is a small market compared to Europe.

So, I mean, you tell me, I mean, I'm told that the e-car will dominate, then we go to e-articulated vehicles, they come next, and then comes the van, that three and a half ton, four and a quarter ton van, and that comes

Gary Comerford (: 28:24

Mm.

Matt Sims (: 28:25

later. And then we start to see contenders for conversion. This is where I need to be led by...

your tribe who need to educate me and then I can share that with my tribe and we can bring everyone together and we can create interest and desire and that in turn of course drives action which is ultimately a purchase.

Gary Comerford (: 28:49

And I think that's coming because for the last couple of years I've been up again to the NEC to the commercial vehicle show. And my

Matt Sims (: 28:55

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 28:56

understanding from people who've attended that quite regularly is that the the nature of the vehicles that are being displayed at the commercial vehicle show has changed. Three, four years ago, it was exactly as you were saying. They were all vans, they were all diesel, everybody was looking for the latest, most efficient diesel van. And yet the last two years that I've been there, the number of

Hybrids or full electric vans that are out there is has increased. I mean, I I've driven the Farizon that you were talking about, and the reason I've driven it is because I saw Farizon at the commercial vehicle show. I got I I made contact with Jamie Fretwell there and I said, you know, any chance I could borrow one of these? And he said, Come on, we'll do the E V rally. So I basically spent a day with him on the E V rally. And it's a case of I think

Can't I can't decide whether they've decided the demand is there, therefore they're moving to electric, or whether they've said, well, we know that the direction is electric, so for so we're going to move there and we're going to build the demand as we go. But whichever one of those it is, we're now at the situation where there are more and more electric vehicles, non-passenger cars that are being electrified. I talked earlier on about.

spending a day out with the electric HGV driver. DAF, Mercedes, Iveco I think do MAN do one? I think so. But they, you know, they're all starting to electrify the the rigid siders, the articulated, the, the different sides. So I think I think the the underlying manufacturing aspect of that is there. I think the desire in certain places to do that is there.

I think from a a camper van, well, from a motorhome point of view, as you say, you've still got six or seven NEC halls worth of of product, which is saying, no, we're still happy with diesel. And I think the the challenge

Matt Sims (: 30:46

Double that.

Gary Comerford (: 30:46

for everybody, it's frightening when I think about the size of the NEC and how how big those holes are and that as I say, even the C V show only goes runs to like a hole and a half, I I think it just

Matt Sims (: 30:56

Yeah, is,

Gary Comerford (: 30:56

ridiculous. But yeah, you know, I think the the the onus is on people like yourself and myself and the others in the industry to start to to build the desire somewhere in the line so that people who've got these diesel ones go, I'm looking to replace this. What's out there on the electric market? And that's the challenge that we've all got.

Matt Sims (: 31:15

Yeah, and

the other huge challenge is that needs educating is charging. And I don't drive an EV car. I'm still in a T6 and various other ice powered vehicles. But the misinformation and there's a huge lack of education. If you've never had, I listened to your episode recently that was...

you were talking about what can you do to make understanding of how this all works for someone who's new to an electric car far simpler because

Gary Comerford (: 31:47

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 31:49

it seems you've got to have a thousand apps and different payment methods and you know there are great apps that help you find the charge points.

But you were one of the very first podcasts that I started listening to, which is why I'm starstruck today for being here on your podcast. So thank you for the invitation. But I remember you introduced me to the fact that there were hundreds of charge points around, but you just don't see them because they're not as obvious as a fuel station. And it's only really once you start to, I I use, have the app ZapMap that I know you endorse heavily.

just out of intrigue, just to see where the charge points are. They're everywhere. There's loads of them. But

Gary Comerford (: 32:29

Yes. Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 32:30

of course, the challenge we have is my motor home is seven and a half meters long. And I can't get that into some of the motorway services. It's a joke.

So

There's a huge, that's the fear bit, I think, where people are scared because it's unknown, it's different, it's change. historically, human nature, we don't like change.

Gary Comerford (: 32:52

I don't like change.

Matt Sims (: 32:53

And my audience, even less resistant to change because, as I alluded to earlier, they've been driving a diesel van or car for 50 years. And now you want me to do something different. that needs educating.

But I actually think that it needs massive regulation. It needs improving. When we were filming the E Endeavour piece, we pulled into a pub where there was a charge point and the space was barely five metres long. And I'm only in this transit, E Transit, which must have been, I think, probably six metres long. And it was hanging out the space, blocking the roadway in the pub, in the car park. It's like, this is totally impractical. So I think that's a huge

part of this jigsaw. There's the adoption of the technology, but then there's actually the real world operation of it. And

Gary Comerford (: 33:41

It is.

Matt Sims (: 33:43

I'm not a user of it, so I can't give a first-hand experience. And I think maybe if I had an electric car, maybe it would definitely be different. I do speak to lots of people who've had EVs and they love the drive.

But the problem is they then said, it's a pain. I'm going back to a diesel because it just isn't the best fit for their use case. And so you get then an anti-EV owner who for them it just didn't work.

I guess we're still at a state where, and Paul Kirby would always say this, you know, maybe an EV isn't the best fit for your, the way you drive and the way you live your life. So don't get one. You can still buy a diesel unless you're looking at VW.

Gary Comerford (: 34:25

It it's fascinating there, because there's a couple of things that you said which are crucial, I think, to to how people approach the the transition.

Matt Sims (: 34:33

Mm.

Gary Comerford (: 34:34

I think Paul's comment about an EV is not right for everybody, absolutely a hundred percent. And I think a lot of the people who end up going to EV and and coming back to fossil fuel, and to be fair to the statistics, that's you know, fewer than one in ten.

I think a lot of that is because they've gone when they shouldn't have gone. They've gone to electric when they don't have the right where where it's not the right solution for them. And of course it's not working out appropriately. So they've they've gone back to fossil fuel. and I think there is, you know, it's incumbent on on people like myself and the people who are selling these vehicles to say, hang on, you know, let me ask you a few questions for a start. You know, what do you have home charging?

Where's your nearest public charger? How many miles do you do? All that sort of stuff. And I think if people don't have that conversation, they end up making the wrong choice. But then there's also the people who make the right choice but end up with the wrong vehicle. You know, they've gone for, and I hate to pull up, pick on our friends Stellantis again, but they may have gone for an early Stellantis vehicle that probably doesn't have the efficiency that they would expect, therefore it doesn't have the range that they would expect.

The charging might not be as quick as they want. So they're spending a lot longer at a charger than ideally they would they would expect. Whereas if they'd gone for something like, I don't know, a Kia, for example, they would have had a longer range, better charging, et cetera, et cetera. So there's there's lots of little aspects in that. But it I will also push back a little bit because you said there's a lot to learn when you move over to electricity. Absolutely, there is. But my niece is currently learning to drive a fossil fuel car because

She needs to pass a test. And she's had to go through weeks and weeks and weeks of theory to get a theory test. She's had to go through dozens and dozens and dozens of hours to do her practical test. And now she's going to have to wait, God knows how many months to get the actual practical test done. So nobody comes out of the womb knowing how to drive and how to run a fossil fuel vehicle. There is always a learning curve.

Like the first time you ever went to a petrol station. You didn't know intuitively how those worked. You you you knew because you watched your parents do it. You know,

Matt Sims (: 36:44

Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 36:44

so there is an ingrained amount of knowledge that you've sort of absorbed through osmosis or you've learned from a driving instructor. And I think people expect that to transfer instantly over to electric and and it doesn't. There is a little bit of a learning curve. So it is there.

But I would push back and say it was also there when you first went to a fossil fuel vehicle. So I don't know where yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 37:05

Yeah, that's fair. think that's fair. But I still think

I still would say the practicalities of the charging spaces that, you know, that the people are building, that the CPOs are installing, just, you know, the lack of consideration for anyone in a wheelchair. They're too close together. They're not long enough. There's no space to queue.

Gary Comerford (: 37:23

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yep.

Matt Sims (: 37:27

And

these are real challenges. mean, you get into the whole debate about electric car, towing a caravan, and you've got

Gary Comerford (: 37:34

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 37:35

to unhitch the caravan and abandon that somewhere in the car park and hope that it doesn't get nicked, secure it, and then go and charge your car. What a faff. It's just, yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 37:46

I will also push back on that, which is that by your own definition, most of the camper vans and motorhomes that are registered are not registered in the UK. There's a lot more of them in Europe. And the charging situation in Europe is a lot lot better. They've they've got better they've got more charges for a start. They're cheaper for another thing. and having used a lot of them myself particularly going down to I've been down to to Paris, I've been down to Geneva, I've been up to Amsterdam, they're

far better laid out. they've got a lot more of the drive-thru chargers, so you don't need to unhitch. You can take on your six meter Ford, etc. So I think that situation's a lot better over there. So people who are going

Matt Sims (: 38:25

Great.

Gary Comerford (: 38:26

to Europe or or in Europe have a better situation here. But you're absolutely right. A lot of the charging infrastructure here has, shall we say, flaws that need to be

addressed and we've spoken to I in fact I've spoken on this podcast to a lot of the CPOs and said, you know, why don't you have all the accessibility? Why are your bays too small? I mean, Instavault is a big example of this. They love to put they take two charging slots at a two parking slots at a McDonald's and put two chargers in there. And of course, they're they're minimal size parking

Matt Sims (: 38:59

time.

Gary Comerford (: 38:59

spaces, they're right next to each other. There's absolutely no room for, as

you say,

People on full time wheelchair users, things like that. It's just it's not ideal. Not ideal at all. No, no, no.

Matt Sims (: 39:09

No. No,

another reason to not stay in the UK. It's not good, is it?

Everything about motor

Gary Comerford (: 39:15

Yeah, quite right.

Matt Sims (: 39:16

homing is easier in Europe. Everything. Honestly, it's a battle in this country. That's another podcast.

Gary Comerford (: 39:25

J well, yes. Yes. it it's it's the

Matt Sims (: 39:27

.

Gary Comerford (: 39:29

same for electric vehicles in in Europe versus the UK, I think. But anyway, we're coming towards the end of our time. Is there anything that we haven't discussed in this area that you would like to talk about?

Matt Sims (: 39:40

I would, there's a little pastime that goes on. It's not incredibly popular, but at that leisure shop, which is my retail business, we sell a charger cable, which enables you to plug in and hook up your motor home. So you've got the charger plug at one end and then you have a 16 amp C-form socket the other, which is what we use on the campsite. So I can recharge my habitation batteries in an EV space.

And I'm told that I'm assured there are safety devices in the cable that stop it overcharging, because it's obviously a 30 amp plug down to a 16 amp socket. Great, that was my first concern. Those concerns have been alleviated. But what would your view be if I'm parked in an EV charge space in my seven and a half metre long motorhome that's 2.2 metres wide.

I've completely filled that McDonald's space and I'm recharging my leisure batteries so I can watch TV and so on in the living area. This is something I'm seeing more more motorhome owners doing as an easy way to get electricity back into the van without going to a campsite. What would your view of that be?

Gary Comerford (: 40:46

That's very interesting because I I equate that to a couple of years ago, Tesla opened up their private supercharging network to people who didn't drive Teslas. And that had a

Matt Sims (: 40:56

Hmm.

Gary Comerford (: 40:57

number of impacts. First off, obviously people were turning up, Tesla drivers were turning up and weren't able to charge because people were blocking the chargers. But the second one is because of the way charger connectors are located on different cars.

With some vehicles, you were actually blocking two chargers because you needed to block one to park and the other one to actually use because the cables weren't long enough to use the ones that were in the anyway. Long story short, it was good overall for the whole EV sphere to be able to expand and have more have access to more chargers, but it was bad for a number of Tesla drivers who had a number of issues at a number of chargers with a number of non-Tesla drivers.

And if I look at the situation that you've just talked about, overall I like to see people using chargers. The CPOs like to see people using chargers. They're not particularly concerned whether it's electric vehicle, a car, whether it's a van, whether it's a truck, or whether it's somebody who's actually recharging something that's not a vehicle. Sidebar, I was at an event the other day where we're talking about decarbonising film and television production.

And they were saying that they do the same thing. If they're shooting, say in the center of London and they've blocked a whole road and that road has chargers, they can actually plug into those chargers and use that to power the lights and all that for the filming. So it's not something that's unheard of. It is something that actually happens. Now, the flip side to that is I'm down to you know, 5% state of charge. I go to my nearest charger.

And I can't hook up because somebody's there blocking the thing with a camper van. Obviously, that's annoying. But it could also be somebody who's not in a camper van. It could be somebody who has, and I hate this when it happens, somebody who's in an electric vehicle and has parked up in that slot, but is not charging. They're just using it as a as a parking slot rather than a charging slot. It happens. It's like the people who don't have.

young children and use the parent and children parking at the supermarket or people who park in disabled base. It does happen. It's not something that we enjoy when it happens to us, but it does happen.

Matt Sims (: 43:10

Hmm. I

think those who do this, there is a consideration and etiquette where if someone came along in an EV and they wanted a charge, you're blocking their means of getting home. So

Gary Comerford (: 43:23

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 43:23

I think the accepted practice is to unplug and allow that person to charge and we can plug in later. So I think there is some consideration. Generally motorhome drivers are pretty...

considerate people generally. The vast majority certainly are. But it's just an interesting pastime. And it's interesting to hear you say that we're not the only non-EV user of an EV charge point. can, yeah, fascinate you. I can see how it's appropriate for lots of pastimes.

Gary Comerford (: 43:49

Yeah. And I think the the key thing is if I look at a lot of particularly the ones that I use when I'm out in public, I will never in quotes go to a single charger or two chargers. Because I know there's a very, very good chance that one of those two charges is probably not going to be working or it's going to be occupied. So my chances of getting

Matt Sims (: 44:08

Right.

Gary Comerford (: 44:09

a charge are minimal. I will always go to a place that has four, five, six, twelve units.

So if I turn up and there's somebody in a motorhome that's blocking one or two of them and they're charging, that's fine. I've still got others that I I've got access to. And if we get to the situation where all of them are being used, because it's a bank holiday Monday and everybody's out wanting charge, as you say, you've still got that etiquette where you just knock on the the doors, excuse me, do mind just unplug in? Let me get in and and charge up the 15 or 20 minutes I need just to get my myself home. So as long as that etiquette is followed and people are willing to

to behave, and and treat people with respect, then I'm all I'm I'm okay with that.

Matt Sims (: 44:49

Great, I'll keep selling them then. These adapters. Yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 44:53

The CPOs will definitely

love you, 'cause it it it improves their

Matt Sims (: 44:56

Well, yeah.

Gary Comerford (: 44:57

utilization. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, that's cool.

Matt Sims (: 44:59

Absolutely, it's an income for them of course. So I think we've got

job to do to educate my world and I encourage you to keep doing it and we are a receptive bunch who I think there's been a definite shift of interest in adopting an e-motorhome, e-camper van

Gary Comerford (: 45:19

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 45:19

and I think we are at that, we're now embarking on a turning point where

it was interesting to see this year at a motorhome show, Kia actually took a stand, which I got very excited about. It's the first time I'd seen a van manufacturer take a stand at a motorhome show. And of course they were there with the PV5, it wasn't converted at that point, but I found it really interesting. The other huge topic, which we've not probably got time to discuss today, is China.

I've seen, I'm in touch with a number of people who are motorhoming in China. They're either Brits or they're now living in China or they're Chinese.

The Chinese are adopting this pastime as a leisure hobby and they are making a huge array of motorhomes and camper vans which absolutely miss the spot for our tastes in the UK. They look very Chinese, if you know what I mean. If you saw one you go, yeah, I know what that means. That will get fixed, undoubtedly. And you mentioned the commercial vehicle show, I was there too. And it was fascinating to see the new badges on the front grille. And I'm predicting we, as a pastime, will see

new names on the front grill of the van maker and then on the motorhome the new name above the windscreen which is the motorhome converter because there's always two brands when it comes to a motorhome and we are going to see I think inevitably BYD and other Chinese brands that are now becoming almost household names even to a non EV market.

And

Gary Comerford (: 46:45

Mm-hmm.

Matt Sims (: 46:45

we have a BYD dealership just opened down the road. It was a Seat dealership for decades and it's now BYD. So I think that's a huge change that we're going to see. Seeing Kia as a badge on the front grill of a camper van is new and I'm hoping the first of many because I think it will keep an industry on its toes and I have no doubt that the mainstream manufacturers exhibiting at CVS are looking

to the East and saying, wow, okay,

Gary Comerford (: 47:16

Yep.

Matt Sims (: 47:17

there's a big threat for them, but it's going to be brilliant for the consumer. I hope,

Gary Comerford (: 47:22

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 47:22

I hope. And I think it's going to have a massive impact on our little corner of the world, which is worth billions of pounds every year. So yeah, please keep us in mind when you're in conversation with these manufacturers, because we want to keep

Gary Comerford (: 47:34

Yeah.

Matt Sims (: 47:34

doing what we love doing.

Gary Comerford (: 47:37

Hundred percent, hundred percent. and I think that is a very appropriate point to say Matt Sims, I really appreciate your time coming on the podcast. I think it's been a fascinating discussion. Thank

you very much.

Matt Sims (: 47:47

Thanks, Gary.

Gary Comerford (: 47:48

Now, Matt brought up several great points about the fact that there is a huge market for potential electrification in the motorhome and camper van world. But the usual barriers of fear, uncertainty, doubt, and a lack of general knowledge and education is slowing things down. Now we've also got the issue of needing to convince the main motorhome chassis manufacturers that they should be looking to produce a couple of models where the drivetrain isn't diesel, but instead batteries.

I was also fascinated by Matt's story about using EV chargers to keep the leisure battery charged. Like I told him at the time, it's not dissimilar to the Tesla non-Tesla aspect with vehicles using chargers that perhaps the chargers weren't designed for. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Let me know in the comments. Now, for those of you who are listening to this on early release, that's my VIP and all access patrons. The show Matt was referring to at the NEC is still going on until this Sunday, the 18th of October.

Tickets are still available if you're in the area. For everyone else, they'll be back there sometime in February.

Gary Comerford Zapmap Outro (: 48:49

The EV Musings Podcast is sponsored by Zapmap, the go-to app for EV drivers to find and pay for public charging with confidence. Zapmap is free to download and use, with thousands of public charge points to choose from, live pricing and availability information, and a range of filters to find the right charge for you. Plus, choose subscription models for enhanced features such as using Zapmap in car, on CarPlay, or Android Auto, and discounted charging across thousands of charge points.

Gary Comerford (: 49:16

I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show. It was put together this week with the help of Matt Sims from the Motorhome Matt Podcast. Many thanks to him for coming on the show and giving us the benefit of his expertise and wisdom.

Gary Comerford Boilerplate (: 49:29

If you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms, or other general messages to pass on to me, I can be reached at info at evmusings.com. On the socials, I'm on BlueSky at evmusings.bsky.social. I'm also on Instagram at EV Musings where I post short videos and podcast extracts regularly. Why not follow me there? Many thanks to everyone who supports me through Patreon, on a monthly basis, and through coffee.com on an ad hoc one. Regular listeners will know about my two ebooks.

So you've gone electric and so you've gone renewable. They're 99p each or equivalent, and you can get them on Amazon. Check out the links in the show notes for more information, as well as the link to my regular EV Musings newsletter and associated articles. Now my stats show that a lot of people watch this on YouTube, but they're not subscribers. So if you're one of those, why not hit that button and the notification bell so you don't miss out? Thank you very much.

Gary Comerford (: 50:24

If you've reached this part of the podcast and are still listening, thank you.

Why not let me know you've got to this point by messaging me at musingtv.psky.social or leaving a comment with the words, it's not just a box on wheels. Hashtag if you know you know nothing else. Thanks as always to my co-founder, Sam. And you know, he really gets to talk about his favourite topic: personal electric vehicles. But when somebody doesn't want to talk about him, he's all over them, regardless of what they ask him.

Matt Sims (: 50:49

It's a commonly asked question and one I get asked a lot.

Gary Comerford (: 50:53

Thanks for listening. Bye-bye.