264 - The Battery Issue Episode

Gary :

Hi, I'm Gary and this is episode 264 of EV Musings. A podcast about renewables, electric vehicles and things that are interesting to electric vehicle owners. And on the show today we'll be looking at EV battery repairs.

Now our main topic of discussion today is battery repairs. Longtime listeners will possibly remember Pete Mooney from episode 150 where he came on to chat about his EV6 and what it was like to live with as a vehicle.

Now that was way back in: 2022

Naturally, Pete's a little worried about what happens now. But remember, a warranty isn't a lifespan indicator, it's a time limit for covered repairs. All cars have warranties from new. Most are in the three to five year range, covering parts and often labor for things that go wrong that are not wear and tear. Kia and Hyundai are something of an exception with a seven year parts and labor warranty covering everything on the car. So let me ask you,

When was the last time you had a car that was out of warranty and were really concerned about it? Well, the answer, especially if you don't buy brand new cars, is probably rarely. You know these are cars and things go wrong. If they're covered, somebody else pays to replace them, and if not, you pay to replace. Cam belts, timing belts, cylinder heads, fuel injectors, water pumps, et cetera. But when it comes to electric vehicles, the big thing that most people worry about

and that most anti-EV people pontificate about is the battery. And the reason is that battery packs, especially some of the earlier ones on the Tesla Model S etc, were very expensive if you had to replace them yourself.

As they are the main part of the EV, it stands to reason that people are going to be concerned about them and how long they last. So today we're looking at batteries. What sort of issues and errors can occur? How often do errors crop up? And does every battery issue mean a complete replacement of the battery unit? Now I could talk at great length about this and do lots and lots of research and in-depth analysis, but you know me, I'm basically lazy. So I thought the easiest thing to do would be to get somebody on who actually knows what they're talking about and ask them the questions instead.

Sara:

Hello, I'm Sara Ridley. I work for Autocraft Solutions Group and I'm the Engineering and Quality Director there. We're engine remanufacturers and battery remanufacturers for EV vehicles.

Gary :

What's your EV story? How did Dr. Sarah Ridley come to the world of electric vehicles? I assume you drive electric.

Sara:

I drive a hybrid actually at the moment.

But yes, well I started off with engines as most people do and I started off in remanufacturing. So remanufacturing basically takes things at the end of their lives and gives them new lives and we've been doing that with conventional engines for years and years and years and it's huge passion of mine because things come in broken and they go out completely useful again and that's the standard they should be. And we realised probably 10 years ago that EVs were starting to come in and we started very slowly with a few government programmes like the Faraday challenge with very small battery packs but it snowballed and we realized probably about five years ago that actually if the world is transitioning to EV they're going to need solutions for them because as with all things the second-hand market is what drives everything and that's having confidence that what you have can be as easily repaired, as easily looked after, easily... It gives you the same sort of life drives the second hand market, which drives the new market, which helps us to transition. And I think we all agree that transitioning to EV is the most important thing we can do at the moment for the planet. It might not be perfect forever, but that's really good now.

Gary :

So let's talk a little bit about EV batteries. Let's start by, can you address the big bit of misinformation that a lot of non-EV drivers and some EV drivers have probably heard, which is your EV battery is the same as your iPhone. It lasts about three years before being useless. So if someone says that to you, how do you tend to respond?

Sara:

In the sense that it uses the same technology, I understand where they're coming from. The reality is that in most people's experience, an EV battery will last without much need for any kind of intervention for about eight years. That's this widely published statistics on that.

Equally, we know that at the moment the failure rate is slightly higher. It's about half a percent. So that's higher than you will get with internal combustion engines, but realistically they've been around for a hundred more years. So we would expect them to be more stable. However, we do know that in the vast majority of cases where batteries do start to fail a bit earlier, you can do something about it. You can repair them.

You can get proper testing, you can get a proper repair and it will carry on lasting. And the bonus of an EV battery in many ways actually, over and above an iPhone battery, and that's largely about economics is, if you look at your phone battery, it's very tiny. Use is the same technology but very tiny. And it's a battery, a cell normally. However, an EV battery is made up of lots of cells and modules and they can be individually replaced in many instances. And that gives you a much longer life and much more economical state of repair. So yes there are failures but there are failures in every kind of transportation. They're not massive, it's unlucky if you get one I wouldn't argue that one, but you can do a lot about them so for me that's not a barrier.

Gary :

I'm going to come on a little bit about the failure rate in a second, but just a little bit of anecdotal. I've had electric vehicles for several, eight years now. They've all been bought or leased from you other than the one I'm currently in, which I picked up a couple of weeks ago. And that's a used electric vehicle. It's not saying high mileage, but it's 55,000 miles already with, and it's about five years old. But of course, the first thing I did when I went to buy it is I got a battery health check and it came out at 92%, which I'm quite comfortable with that. can you, are you able to talk a little bit about battery health checks? How useful are they? How accurate can they be?

Sara:

The reality is it does depend on the technology used to do the check. So we have found in our experience that the simple checks that done through the battery management system often are not overly accurate.

That's partly because there is snapshot in time. So a lot of battery checks are effectively static checks. It tells you what the health of your battery is at that point. What it doesn't tell you is how your battery reacts over a period of events, so charging and discharging cycles. So what we would call active testing rather than passive testing. And that's really important because that sets the profile for how well it will hold the charge. See, it might have been very well charged and holding at that point, but actually if it's been overly used. So we find that very fast charging and discharging, so rapid charging and discharging, affect the health of the battery over a period of time. So after five years, yours has obviously been very well looked after, if it's got 92 % state of health, that's really good, but some of them actually degrade further than that. So a very good test can not only tell you what your state of health is now, but it will also predict what's likely to fail over a relatively short period of time that's really useful, particularly with a secondhand car, because it gives you an idea about what sort of longevity you're going to get, where your range is likely to be, and also if you have those bits repaired, where your range would be. So that's really, important. So there are some quite superficial checks that will give you a snapshot, but we would always recommend an active test because that will give you a much more comprehensive picture.

Gary :

Would you feel comfortable naming the kind of companies that provide the tests, the active tests that you're talking about?

Sara:

I can't honestly sit here and recommend one. We don't deal directly with the general public at this point. We work through partners, mostly OEM partners, both battery and vehicle OEMs. However, we have found that most of the tests that we have tried are not particularly comprehensive. So I couldn't honestly sit here and say to you, I could definitely recommend one. And I really don't want to mislead you.

Gary :

Fair enough. One of the things that I don't know whether it's anecdotal or not is that when we're looking at battery tests, one of the things that can, quote unquote, skew the state of health is that there are the buffers at the top and the bottom of a battery to protect it. There are certain vehicles which will sort of release a little bit of that buffer as the degradation occurs. So it gives not necessarily a false reading but one that may not be as accurate as it could be. Is that an accurate statement?

Sara:

Yes it is, we do know that there are some manufacturers that protect their batteries. What I would say to you though is that the most efficient way and the most way for it to last longer is to keep your battery somewhere between about 35 % and about 70 % charged at any one time. that's honestly exactly the same for your phone. Charging it all the way up and discharging it virtually all the way down and not healthy for the battery. So part of that will be to protect your battery health and keep it lasting as long as possible. So yes, it is slightly slewed, but the reality is that we can accurately check where a battery should be against the amount of miles it's done in its age so we understand where that level should be and actually all that the manufacturer is doing by releasing some at either end of that cell is protecting you and keeping your battery lasting for a lot longer.

Gary :

A big fear that a lot of people have, particularly ones who don't drive electric or are brand new to electric, is that their EV will stop one day because the battery has died. Now, I'm holding up for the people who are listening and not watching. I'm holding up a standard nine volt square battery, which I've been using these for decades. I've never had one of these quote unquote die on me. I've had one where it's run out of charge. I've had one where I've left it in a device and it's crusted over and corroded at the top and stopped working. But I've never actually had the battery itself die. So when somebody says, well, my EV battery has died, what exactly are they talking about? What's the actual mechanism that's occurring there?

Sara:

So there are two things. So one, will have, in the same way as a conventionally powered vehicle will have, effectively a limp mode. So you're getting close, so it will restrict you. And that won't allow you to put your foot down and go really fast and rapidly to charge it. And the idea is to get you to a safe location to recharge. So that's technology that's not actually in the battery, but in the management system. And that's the same in any management system. You'll have that in any kind of vehicle.

Typically, it's very unusual for a whole pack to fail.

But typically if it does, it's likely to be something like a broken connection. So they tend to be wired in series and in parallel. So it's more likely to be a mechanical fault than a battery fault in terms of the actual reaction of the battery. We very, very rarely see one. I can't say that there's never been one. We do see occasional faults in terms of the connections and things like that, as well as just with an EV battery because as you know it's a chemical reaction from the moment it's made and whilst they are made in the same place at the same time it's like anything else there is variation so you get variation in the way they react. Typically they're the biggest amount of failures you do sometimes see them in the connections and things like that but we don't see very many of those so typically batteries are very well made.

Gary :

We've talked about the buffer and the bottom buffer. Have we ever had instances or are you ever aware of instances where people have managed to run that buffer solo that it has physically got to the point where they've run so much charge out, there's no buffer left and it has destroyed the battery from that point of view.

Sara:

We've never come across an instance of that, no. Not with our customers.

Gary :

Fair enough. Now, in reality, know you quoted a stat a little bit earlier, but in reality, how often should an error or fault mean that a brand new battery is required versus a change of a cell or a bit of a pack or the BMS or something other than the actual battery itself?

Sara:

So this is one of those really interesting things. It's a little bit like Trigger's Broom You can replace the handle, you can replace the head, and you can keep it going. And in theory, an EV pack is exactly the same. So you can replace anything in it multiple times.

Now we know in practice that once it gets below, and this does vary a bit with manufacturer, but about 75 % of its overall ability to hold a charge and to deliver that properly, then it typically isn't suitable for EV use. So for a vehicle, we would want it to be above that. So it does vary slightly to manufacturer, but that's a rule of thumb, I would say, about there. Realistically, we can replace any of those parts all the way up to there. But at that point, it's still got a very useful life. And that useful life can be as secondary storage, it can be to help balance the grid, we can even use them to power charging stations. Because you trickle charge the battery pack, which gives you a quicker charge, and then it trickle charges back again, or you can do it via things like solar panels, wind power, anything like that. So in theory, you wouldn't need a new packing that vehicle until you got down below that.

Now we do know that packs are replaced more often and sometimes that's because of the availability of repair and the availability of packs and part of that is because the technology is growing so rapidly that chemistry changes. And so it's literally about how do we use those to make sure we can continue with those batteries and keep those batteries going. You you said your car, the one that you're currently driving is about five years old. I would be willing to bet that the chemistry has moved on in the same model of vehicle considerably. And so it's for me, the only thing that's the barrier to us being able to repair that is where do we get the replacement cells or modules, because typically that's what it is, and we harvest them. So what we found over our experience is that 92 % roughly, 92 to 94 % of any failed pack is fine. Really good, absolutely fit for use. And it's only one or two modules or cells.

That's the problem. Now talk about modules or cells because that comes down to pack architecture. We can do the testing to cell level, we can replace at cell level, but if the pack architecture means we have to take a whole module, not a cell, because we'll break it otherwise, then you have to change a module. So what we actually do is we harvest the 92 % that are good.

We test them, we grade them, we put them on the shelf, and then we can use those to repair and replace other packs, which means that we can keep them going for a lot longer, and that's really, really important.

I worry very greatly that we're leaping straight towards recycling. Now, don't get me wrong, recycling is brilliant. We all recycle and it's the right thing to do, but it's premature recycling in terms of packs because they can have so much more life.

The EV process for building one means that all of the damage to the environment is upfront. All of the emissions, all of those things are upfront. Now we know by the time it gets to about the sort of age yours is and about that sort of mileage, it's paid off its debt, it becomes neutral. But if we can then extend it for another five to eight years, actually it becomes positive. And that's the really big thing. And if we do it with harvesting modules, it becomes even more positive. And that's how we're gonna get towards that whole carbon neutral, non damaging thing for me. So it's about maintaining that level of change.

Gary :

So many questions have come out of that, which is fantastic. We had Stephen Williams, who works with the EV insurance industry on the podcast last season. And he was talking about the fact that one of the reasons why EV premiums are so high is because there are many repairs who, they look at a battery, they see there's an issue with the battery and they don't want to repair it, they want to replace it. So of course, rather than having to take out a cell or a module and whatever that cost is going to be, they're going to say, no, we're going to take out the whole battery and replace with a brand new one. How much of that do you believe is a result of the fact that it's something completely unknown and it's easier to do that versus, well, actually there's an education aspect, there's companies like yourself that need to be out there working with the insurance companies and say look we can do quote-unquote cheaper repairs at the cell or the module level rather than doing a full battery replacement

Sara:

Think actually it's a bit of both. I think the education is getting better, we're getting more more technicians qualified to remove batteries and do those things, but actual repair is quite in infancy. There aren't that many companies doing it and it's about people knowing about it. We are starting to get some interest from insurers because we do understand that part of it's fear of the unknown, they are high voltage, they are dangerous.

Not where they're in the vehicle, but when they are taken out or when they are their lids come off They are very dangerous So the first thing we do when we get a pack in is we put it through our initial testing Which not only checks to see you know, is it damaged in any way but brings it down to a safe state of charge So roughly 20 % 20 to 30 % again It slightly depends on the size of the battery and things like that But we bring it down and that's so we know that it's a safe point. don't, can't really bring it down to zero because a chemical reaction doesn't just stop.

But what we have to do is bring it down to where it's safe. And we can actually do that by going out. So we have mobile units that can go out and make batteries safe. And that's really important for us because when we're transporting them around, once you take it out of the car, it becomes dangerous goods and you have to be really careful about transporting it. And that, to be honest, and that adds to the cost. When you think for an average EV, the cost of the battery is about 40% of the cost of the vehicle. Replacing it's very, very expensive.

So I think the lack of people who are qualified to deal with them, the lack of awareness that they can be repaired and that actually repairs can be very cost effective. It varies depending on what's needed, but certainly up to about 50 % of the cost of a pack you can save, if not a little more. It does vary a lot depending on what's wrong. I couldn't give you an absolute figure. And it also depends a little bit on the architecture of the pack. We know with some packs are flooded with resin so we would call it potted or glue in some way that makes it very difficult for them to be changed out but a lot of packs are made on a modular level and on a cell level and so providing they can be replaced they can be repaired really easily they really can and I think that that's that's the thing here is if we can get the message out there if we can work with enough people to say you can repair this it's cost-effective you could get an independent test done that will give you a good idea of where it is because let's be honest I've been in automotive for a lot of years now and I can go out and I can look at a secondhand internally combustion engine powered car with reasonable certainty I can drive it I was out with my son at the weekend looking at some with one of my sons because he wants a new car and we were looking at some secondhand cars and I can be really you know fairly certain I'm working an EV I could get into an EV car at a dealer's I wouldn't know.

I really wouldn't because there's nothing to see, there's nothing to hear. You need a proper check and I think if we can get all those things in place and not just in terms of the general public but in terms of dealers, independent garages, insurers, actually it starts to become a real snowball and that will help everybody. It really does help it going forwards.

Gary :

Now, the other thing that you mentioned earlier on was the concept of harvesting. So taking a that's probably not 100 %... Taking a battery where there's... OK, and then you'll take out the cells and the modules that are good and you'll trash the rest. Now, you did also mention that potentially the chemistry of the battery that's in my vehicle will not necessarily be the same of the chemistry in the battery of the same vehicle that is brand new.

Sara:

We just knuckle in it, we literally take it apart.

Gary :

What's to start? I think I know the answer, but I'll ask the question anyway. Could you take harvested cells from a new battery and put them in and replace a fraction of the cells in my battery, even though the chemistry is slightly different?

Sara:

No, it's not generally, we wouldn't generally do that. That's not really safe. The battery is set up to work in a very specific way and it's managed in a very specific way. In the same way as I couldn't put a brand new modular cell of the same chemistry into a battery pack without first balancing it to the profile of the pack. Because what you actually do is you create an imbalance and that's where you get things like damage to the packs from things like thermal runaway.

You create a balance. So all we do, we try to keep it as balanced as possible. That makes it more efficient. It also makes it safer for everybody.

Gary :

Can you go through a little bit the actual testing process that you go through? Why is it not possible or why is it not just as simple as looking at the BMS and saying, right, that's what the BMS says the issue is, therefore that's what the issue is. Why is it a little bit more complex than that?

Sara:

Because, I always think of them as living organisms because of the chemical reaction, because that's essentially what they are. They are a dynamic. What... The state of health does if you plug into the BMS is it gives you a, is what I'm doing now. Now typically that's done when it's static, it's been sat for a while, it's in a sort of garage type location and you plug in and it will tell you what's happening now which is that they are just resting and ticking over with their chemical reactions. Now it might well tell you that it's only at 90 % or it's at whatever percent but it won't actually give you a whole picture of how it behaves

Because when you excite those cells, which you do when you are discharging or when you're charging, they behave very differently. And what we need to understand is what's the lowest performing of those cells. Because that's where your actual overall performance will be. When it's resting and sat you'll get an overall picture of the whole of the battery. Once you start to excite those cells, and once you start to charge and discharge them and put them through those cycles, what you actually see is individually what are they doing. And when you can see individually what they're doing, you can understand what the actual overall picture is. You can also see if there are any disconnections effectively.

So if there is a connector issue, you'll be able to see that because there'll be a part of it that isn't performing as well. And you'll be able to spot that. And you can also see not only where they are currently, but where they're moving to and from. And that's really important again for the overall health of the life. If you think about it as a sort of a range. So it will sit within that range.

But once you start to discharge and discharge it will move between that. And what you want to understand is are they all the same or have you got one that's down here? Because if you've got one that's down here, that's what will affect the overall operation of the pack as opposed to its resting state.

Gary :

Now a lot of people who will either be watching this or listening to this will have potentially researched on YouTube and they will have seen people like Jonathan Porterfield and Andrew Till plugging in OBD connectors into the vehicle and using something like Leaf Spy or Equivalent to look at the state of the cells. Is it as simple as that? Is that what you're talking about? Or is it something sort of a level above that?

Sara:

Yep. So we do that in part as well, but we have other tests as well that we do. And they're designed to understand not only whether we've got that going, but whether we can see any lithium that's shifting, so whether we're going to get any plating in terms of anodes and cathodes, whether we can see any degradation and things like that. There's a whole suite of testing that we do, which is all patented because it runs in a specific way to give us a comprehensive report. So some of the tests are out there, some of the bits of testing that we do you can see in other places, but the overall suite and the way we run it is actually what gives us the comprehensive view of it.

Gary :

Okay. Now I realized we've been talking for 25 minutes that we've talked about cells and modules and batteries. We haven't actually done a definition of what's the cell, what's the module and how does that put together? you give us the battery 101 on that please?

Sara:

Well, I always think of it, this is a really old fashioned view, but I'm going to tell you anyway, it's probably to do with my age is when you go into an airport and into duty free, certainly before nowadays, I think they're all current way you see cartons of cigarettes to bring home. Sort of a shoot wrapped into packs. So if you think about one of those cartons as an EV battery, each one of those packs inside it is essentially a module and each of the cigarettes inside the pack is a cell.

Now, that's the easiest, I always think that's a really easy way of visualizing it because I think we've all seen them, you know. Sometimes they are arranged just like that. So there are cells inside the modules, the modules are then built into the battery pack. That battery pack is then built into the vehicle.

That way, if they are welded or attached mechanically in some way to each module, you can replace at cell level. You can see what's happening at cell level, you can replace at cell level. Or if they are potted, so in other words, glued in in some form with resin or with the glue of some kind, you might have to replace the whole module. But typically, you can have up to 30 or 40 of those in a pack. So it's only a portion of the pack that's being changed at any one time.

We are seeing more and more packs where it is just cells into the whole pack itself. Those ones, it depends again, is it put in with resin because they're much more difficult to do without breaking all the architecture around them, or is there a weld or a mechanical fixing in some way? Those ones again, relatively easy to change.

Gary :

Mm-hmm.

Is cell replacement or module replacement possible on all electric vehicles? For instance, I know that Tesla use batteries as they're integrated into the chassis on some of the Model 3s and Model Ys. Is that an issue?

Sara:

Yes it can be. So the way we work with a lot of our OEMs is it works in exactly the same way as if you take your car to the dealer and you need a new wind mirror.

The dealer orders one, one gets delivered, they change it out and they do whatever they need to do with the one they've taken off. So typically what will happen with our OEM customers is their dealers will go onto their portal, they'll say, I have this battery and they'll do it by serial number because they know all about it. And that links into our portal. They will order one of the same sort of battery. We will dispatch that to them. So it will be the same state of health, be the same chemistry, the same battery type, again, by serial So we have a traceability all the way through of everything that happens including by serial number the bits we take out and replace So what goes in and what goes out and what happens to it afterwards of each of those cells or modules We will send that out to them with the packaging and all the paperwork for the old battery. They'll replace it They'll give us back the old one. We'll repair that and put that back on the shelf. So that makes it a really slick process Now where you've got things that are built into the chassis depending on again and it does depend on how it's been put onto the chassis, yes it could be repaired. The problem is I need the whole vehicle because we've got to basically dismantle it in order to get to it and that is the problem. So one of the things we work very closely with our vehicle OEM manufacturers on how they are developing their new vehicles because as an EV driver the last thing you want to do is have to give up your entire vehicle for quite a while to have somebody dismantle it completely in order to get to the chassis and to the pack.

Whereas some of the more easily repaired ones, and certainly with some of Tesla's rivals you remove the whole battery pack, you replace the whole battery pack. Again, it can be with a repaired one, doesn't have to be brand new one but one that works in the same way, that's the same age and the same mileage, we balance all that out. And then it's a much slicker process. The garage maybe only has it for a day or two, which is no real different for you having a vehicle change or a part change, sorry, on a conventional vehicle.

Gary :

there is presumably a cost implication for taking something in and having to take the whole vehicle apart to get the battery roll. ⁓

Sara:

Huge. I mean, this is the problem is that then makes it much more expensive. It also, and I do think this is really important, for me this is really important, as a, I don't have skin in the game direct to customers, because we don't deal directly with customers, you know, the end users. So for me it's not, I've got no real skin in the game of that. But the reality for me is, if we don't allow independent garages as well as dealers to be able to do these things, then there's an awful lot of people who be disenfranchised and we can't afford to do that, we really can't. If you take your, always, if you change your car every three years, you take it to the main dealers to have their servicing done, then actually probably it's not such a big deal. It'll be very expensive, but it's not such a big deal. But if like the majority of people, you don't, you buy a second-of-a-half car, you take it to an independent garage to do that, actually we're disenfranchising all of those people, because what we're saying is only Tesla people in this case, or only that OEMs people can do it, only their dealers, it's going to cost an awful lot of money. And where I look at a secondhand one, I'd be thinking, if I buy that, I could be opening myself to a world of pain.

And the reality is that most people don't buy a new car every year. Most people want to be responsible environmentally. They want things to be really, you know, they want to be doing the right thing. And we're not allowing them to unless we open that up. So for me, the way we build our EV vehicles is hugely important. And that's why we work both with our battery OEM customers and with our vehicle OEM customers to try and make sure we can keep that going.

Gary :

We've talked a lot about repairing cells and repairing modules, repairing the battery, the actual physical hardware itself. But from your experience and the work that you're doing for the OEMs and the battery manufacturers, how much of the repairs and the work that you're doing are actually battery issues and how much are things like, I'm going to say battery adjacent, so damage or corrosion to HV cables or water ingress or things like that, or do you just deal with the batteries themselves?

Sara:

No, we do see bow, we do see other things. We don't see very much in terms of the cabling and things like that. That does tend to be fairly secure. We've seen the odd one with things like water ingress, that kind of thing. But generally speaking, the majority of issues that we are seeing are battery related, either to do with the way it's been put together, so things being loose or connectors coming loose or being damaged, or with the actual battery chemistry itself. But again, like I said to you before, over 90 % of the battery, even when we see faults, is fine. And that's, I think that's something to hold onto, is that there might be a fault, but it is only a very small proportion of the whole pack.

Gary :

Do you have stats about the percentage of issues related to different battery chemistry? Because the, I mean, there are a number out there, but the two main ones are your NMC and LFP. Do one of those tend to be more or less?

Sara:

We don't see a lot of... so I hate the phrase digital twin because it's not really right, but we have profiles for each different type of chemistry that we deal with because obviously they do behave differently and we can't compare them directly, although actually I have to say we don't see a great deal of difference in terms of the return rates or the need for repair rates between any one chemistry. It feels to us at the moment and we've only had, in terms of repairing batteries a production economic scale.

We did a lot before, we've done a lot of small runs, but in terms of food production, we're only talking two and a half to three years worth of data. Actually, there's not a lot of difference. So I couldn't sit here and say, one chemistry is definitely better than the other, because we don't see a great deal of difference in those sorts of rates.

Gary :

But flip side to that is you can't turn around and say one chemistry is definitely worse than the other.

Sara:

No and it's true and to be honest I wouldn't let that necessarily concern me as a consumer. I think for me it's about have you got a repair scheme within your dealership or within your OEM group that means if I have something wrong, you can deal with it or you can point me to the place that can deal with it. Because the last thing I want is to buy one where I know I've got no hope of repairing it. Because whilst it might only be a small chance of it going wrong, you know, the sort of half a percent, do you want to be that one person? Definitely not.

Gary :

Makes sense. Absolutely. Now I want to talk a little bit more about the actual repair ecosystem because you've mentioned it a number of times on the discussion already. You don't deal with the actual drivers themselves. You're at a different end of the process. So if, God forbid, I have an issue with my five-year-old EV and I want it to be fixed, what's the process for getting it to you or someone like you? What is that ecosystem?

Sara:

At the moment. The way it works is, because we are not in independent dealers at this point, the way it works currently is you would go to that OEM and say, do you have a repair, a repairer? And they will normally process that for you. You will go via your local dealer's portal to us and that's how it will be affected. And it'd have to go through them. I say, what we are now very much interested in and trying to work towards is proliferating that kind of technology and that kind of repair system.

Gary :

Mm-hmm.

Sara:

It's twofold really. One, you get that confidence up and if we get the confidence up and we help people to do it, we see more repairs, we see more business, that's the reality. But we also see more call coming back to us. Because obviously we want the ones back so that we can repair them, which means we've then got an offering to give back out. That's really important for everybody because it keeps the whole flow going. But also it then means if we get into places like independent dealers, if we have a system for doing that, then actually the EV automatically becomes bigger because people are confident to buy one at second hand, they are confident to go out there and change from what they're currently driving to a new type of technology and that's important for all of us.

Gary :

100 % Going back to earlier on if we say a battery is at 75 % state of health does that mean that every cell in that battery is at 75 % state of health or does that mean that 25 % of the cells in that battery are at zero state of health and the rest are 100 or does it sort of mix and match.

Sara:

No, typically, and again, it will depend a little bit on the tests that you do, okay? So if you're looking at the BMS, it will give you an overall, so that will be a kind of effectively average. So I'm not going have any 100%, you're not going to have any at zero, but it'll be a sort of average. If you're running a test like we run, then that will be the worst performing sales in the battery.

Because you actually, because they are wired in series and then in parallel, your overall battery performance is typically at the lowest performing member. And that would be the lowest performing cell or module. So that would be what we would report.

Gary :

Right. Let's move on to skills and skills deficit. We've talked a little bit about this already. Do we have enough people with the right skills and equipment in this country to be able to do the kind of things that you and your organization are doing?

Sara:

Well, the simple answer is no.

That's the reality. things are getting better in the sense that there is starting to be good technician qualifications for people to remove batteries, to make them safe, to replace batteries. In terms of actually the proliferation of the technology and the skills to be able to repair them, then no there isn't. It is that simple. There are only one or two players in the market and they are not in all places and it takes a

while to be able to train people to be able to get our technology over there. We're privately owned so that automatically limits a little bit what you can do in terms of you know where are we going to find the money for to invest. So we typically partner and we partner with OEMs because that makes sense for us and then we have the backing and it gives them the infrastructure they need but it gives us that level of security if you like. But no there are very few players in the repair market and that's a real shame. That said, I do think that it will come.

We're not the only people looking at this. We have a really good solution here and now. We want to be out there and telling people. There will be others. People are already there in the market, so we do know it can be done. The biggest issue is making sure that what's done is done competently, because that, again, to me, is about confidence. And we are really proud to say that of all the ones that we have repaired haven't had any warranty claims on those ones that we have repaired. So we know everything we put out is good. However, you know, I can't say that about everybody because I don't know. But we have to get to the point where we have that level of technology for everybody.

Gary :

Good. Good. When it comes to upskilling people, there are two ways of doing this. And you've already mentioned one, which is you bring people into your organization, you train them internally, you give them all the skills that they need. And that's absolutely fine. And that's what a lot of companies do. But of course, you've then got the other aspect of this, which is there needs to be an education aspect at technical colleges or for younger people to actually learn that kind of skills and experience so that when they come to you, they have a level of knowledge a base level that you can build on. Are you doing any work to try and improve the education level for people before they come into your organization?

Sara:

So we're partnering with a couple of local colleges and one UTC near us to try and get that started, but it is in its infancy. And for us, this is about how do we start that? Again, we are a relatively small organization. There is about $500 in total, and not all doing EV would be unfair of me to say we are and we aren't. Yes, so we're poking with local ones, but we do need a more general thing. But again, this to me comes down to that recognition that this is what we need to do. So what I see coming out in current legislation, what I see coming out from the government, and even when we are talking about the path to net zero, it's all about recycling. It's not about repair. That middle part of reuse and repair is very, at the moment, and undervalued and underseen. And until we make that step change, you know, I spend a lot of time talking to people, lobbying for it, because I am, you know, very, very passionate that this is what we need to do. I really do think that.

But until we get to that point, you only get pockets of recognition. So because we take apprentices, because we take work placements, because we engage with our local UTCs, our local colleges, we have some leverage and some say with what they do. And they can see that there's a need and they can start to help us develop that. But it's getting it to the more wide and mainstream that's the really big challenge. And that will come, I think, a little from OEMs because they are engaged but again we do I'm afraid still from some OEMs see the our batteries won't ever fail and if they do we don't want anybody to know and the reality is you know like it or not they will but things do that's okay you know I tell all my apprentices the only people who don't make mistakes are the ones who aren't doing anything and it's no different with batteries and with cars is it the ones that don't fail are the ones in the garage

Gary :

We've come to the end of our time, Sara. Is there anything else you want to say on this topic before we finish?

Sara:

The only thing for me here is that to replace an EV battery before it needs to be replaced, so in other words by not repairing it, by not keeping going for the log is madness. It's madness in terms of cost, it's madness in terms of the environment.

Repairs are a fraction, a fraction, less than 5 % of the overall impact of a battery in environmental sense. It makes no sense not to do it. And the more I can get the message out there, the more people who know about it, the more we move towards that, the better for me.

Gary :

Sarah Ridley, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much for coming on the show.

Sara:

Thank you Gary, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Gary :

A couple of takeaways from this. Battery issues and problems will occur with some electric vehicles and that's one reason manufacturers provide warranties to help new owners deal with it. The figure that Sara quoted was about a half a percent, which is slightly higher than the equivalent for internal combustion engine vehicles. But as Sara said, they've had a hundred years to sort out the tech. So you'd expect engines to be in a much better state than batteries at this point.

But what Sara was at pains to point out is that just because a battery pack has a problem, it doesn't mean that the battery needs to be scrapped and replaced at huge cost to the owner. With the work that Sara and Autocraft Solutions do, it's now possible to bring the car in, identify which part of the battery has the issue, isolate it, replace it, and send it back out as new. That's both quicker and cheaper than replacing it a brand new battery.

The other thing that's apparent from this discussion is that there is at present a bit of a tendency to take faulty batteries out and send them straight to recycling. Whilst there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, it does miss out on a great deal of useful life where a battery which is no longer suitable for use in an EV can go on to home storage or as Sara suggested, battery storage for EV chargers for example, which could be trickle charged from low voltage grid connections, but still used to rapid charge EVs. Now, I don't know about you, but I thought this was a fantastic discussion and I love Sara's duty-free cigarettes analogy to explain cells, modules and packs. was brilliant. So having listened to this, do battery issues still loom large for you as potential EV owners? Or are you an existing EV owner who's approaching the end of your EV's battery warranty? Do you feel concerned? I certainly feel a lot more relaxed about the state of the battery in the vehicle I've just bought. So let me know info@EVMusings.com.

It's time for a cool EV or a dual thing to share with you listeners. Keeping with the battery theme, I want to talk about a new battery install for energy storage. Constructions recently started on the 100 megawatt

h is set to finish in October: 2026

Gary :

I hope you enjoyed listening to today's show. It was put together this week with the help of Sarah, Dr. Sarah Ridley and Pete Mooney. Many thanks to them for their help. If you have any thoughts, comments, criticisms or other general messages to pass on to me I can be reached at info@EVMusings.com

On the socials I’m on Bluesky @evmusings.bsky.social

I’m also on Instagram at EVMusings where I post short videos and podcast extracts regularly. Why not follow me there?

Thanks to everyone who supports me through patreon on a monthly basis, and through Ko-fi.com on an ad-hoc one.

If you enjoyed this episode why not buy me a coffee? Go to Ko-fi.com/evmusings and you can do just that. Takes Apple Pay, too!

Regular listeners will know about my two ebooks- ‘So, you’ve gone electric’ and ‘So you’ve gone renewable’.

They’re 99p each (or equivalent) and you can get them on Amazon

Check out the links in the show notes for more information as well as a link to my regular EV Musings newsletter and associated articles.

I know you’re probably driving or walking or jogging now. But if you can remember- and you enjoyed this episode drop a review in iTunes, please (Or leave a comment on YouTube). It really helps me out. Thanks.

If you’ve reached this part of the podcast and are still listening - thank you. Why not let me know you’ve got to this point by messaging me @musingsev.bsky.social with the words, 'Can you get me 60 kilowatt hours at duty free please? #ifyouknowyouknow,' nothing else. Thanks as always to my co-founder Simone. You know, he posted an Instagram reel from a museum he went to in Italy recently. It was devoted to household appliances through the ages. He was particularly interested in the small device that was an apparent forerunner to the modern day vacuum.

But manual, of course. He said...

Sara:

So this is one of those really interesting things. It's a little bit like Trigger's Broom

Gary :

Thanks for listening. Bye.